Neutrinos back into the picture?

[beatrix kiddo]

well, the planets maintain the right acceleration so they don't fall into the more massive bodies they approach. if these massive bodies create a drag, wouldn't it require additional energy to maintain the right acceleration so everything doesn't fall into the most massive body in the solar system??

 

[urtalkinstupid]

By work, I'm assuming you are referring to the work equation?

 

[chroot]

well, the planets maintain the right acceleration so they don't fall into the more massive bodies they approach. if these massive bodies create a drag, wouldn't it require additional energy to maintain the right acceleration so everything doesn't fall into the most massive body in the solar system??

What drag are you talking about?

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

obviously these massive objects are going to start to slow down the less massive objects as they "pull" them closer to their center mass..

 

[Entropy]

well, the planets maintain the right acceleration

They don't maintain acceleration they maintain velocity.

if these massive bodies create a drag, wouldn't it require additional energy to maintain the right acceleration so everything doesn't fall into the most massive body in the solar system??

Well there is drag on just about everything to some degree or another. The planets feel very little drag but still feel it none the less. So yes, eventually they will fall into the sun (but not for a long long long time) unless some other body effects them and changes their orbit.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

so, basically, the planets are slowing down around the sun?? should the years be getting longer or something??

 

[beatrix kiddo]

does NASA keep a record of this slight time change? or does it only become noticeable every 100 years or something?

 

[chroot]

obviously these massive objects are going to start to slow down the less massive objects as they "pull" them closer to their center mass..

If the solar system were a perfect vacuum, there would be no drag forces and the planets would continue to orbit the Sun exactly as they do now, forever, with no energy input.

The solar system is not a perfect vacuum, however. The density of the interplanetary medium is about 5 particles per cubic centimeter, on average. Most of these particles are in orbit around the Sun in the same way the planets are, and thus are more or less stationary with respect to the planets. They produce an extremely tiny amount of drag that does act to slow the planets down. It acts so so slowly that it is entirely negligible over the lifetime of the solar system.

For the sake of planets, which are very, very massive, there is essentially no drag and they are essentially not slowing down.

- Warren

 

[Math Is Hard]

so, basically, the planets are slowing down around the sun?? should the years be getting longer or something??

no - actually they go faster when they are nearer to the sun (approaching perihelion - hope I said that right!). One of Kepler's laws.

 

[chroot]

does NASA keep a record of this slight time change? or does it only become noticeable every 100 years or something?

It would not be measurable with today's technology even over a billion years.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

no - actaully the go faster when they are nearer to the sun (approaching perihelion - hope I said that right!). One of Kepler's laws.

While this is true, let's just assume circular orbits for the sake of this discussion. Beatrix & Co. seem to have some very grave misunderstandings of Newtonian gravitation, and we need to clear up the easy bits first.

- Warren

 

[Chronos]

so, basically, the planets are slowing down around the sun?? should the years be getting longer or something??

Actually, the orbital period decreases as they get nearer to the sun. A Kepler's second law thing.

 

[Math Is Hard]

we need to clear up the easy bits first.

OK, good point. I'll be quiet now.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

For the sake of planets, which are very, very massive, there is essentially no drag and they are essentially not slowing down.

ESSENTIALLY?? but there still is a slight drag! and it makes sense that the planets get faster the closer they get to the sun, because the sun pushes them out and increases their velocity...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Beatrix & Co. seem to have some very grave misunderstandings of Newtonian gravitation, and we need to clear up the easy bits first.

not undermining my intelligence are we, chroot??

 

[chroot]

ESSENTIALLY?? but there still is a slight drag! and it makes sense that the planets get faster the closer they get to the sun, because the sun pushes them out and increases their velocity...

The slight drag is simply not relevant for something as massive as a planet.

Actually, the planet's speed grows larger as it approaches the Sun. This is contrary to what your push theory would suggest. When the planet is closest to the Sun, it would be intercepting more neutrinos, and would thus have a larger force applied to it. This would mean the planet's speed would be changing the most at the instant it is nearest the Sun (called perhelion). This is not what is observed. There is actually an extremum in the speed at perhelion -- the speed increases up to perhelion, then begins decreasing.

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Well there is drag on just about everything to some degree or another. The planets feel very little drag but still feel it none the less. So yes, eventually they will fall into the sun (but not for a long long long time) unless some other body effects them and changes their orbit.

there seems to be some disunity amongst ur arguments...

 

[chroot]

not undermining my intelligence are we, chroot??

No. You are certainly ignorant, but you are not unintelligent.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

there seems to be some disunity amongst ur arguments...

What 'disunity?'

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

entropy told me the planets are slowing down and will eventually fall into the sun, but u say that they go faster when they approach the sun.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

i'm ignorant? I'm suprised that u think this... i thought u and i were becoming best friends or something!

 

[Entropy]

entropy told me the planets are slowing down and will eventually fall into the sun, but u say that they go faster when they approach the sun.

I never said they slowed down. Read my posts. I said they experence drag.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

This would mean the planet's speed would be changing the most at the instant it is nearest the Sun (called perhelion). This is not what is observed. There is actually an extremum in the speed at perhelion -- the speed increases up to perhelion, then begins decreasing.

not a single planet in this solar system has a perfect circular orbit around the sun. parts of the orbits go in, some swing out; so at some points it's closer than at others all the way around, right? this means that there would be a difference all the way around, not just at the closest and furthest points.. so actually, my theory goes along with current observations.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

ok.. my bad entropy.. the planets experience drag and will eventually fall into the sun..
drag- something that slows or delays progress.. dictionary.com

weird...

 

[chroot]

entropy told me the planets are slowing down and will eventually fall into the sun, but u say that they go faster when they approach the sun.

Your confusion is the reason I was trying to keep everyone from bringing up all sorts of secondary issues like non-circular orbits and drag due to the interplanetary medium.

It is true that the planets slow down due to drag, but not detectably so.

It's true that the planets do not orbit in perfectly circular orbits. They actually move along elliptical orbits, which bring them closer to the Sun during some portions of the orbit and further from the Sun during others. When a planet is closer to the Sun, it moves faster; when it is further, it moves slower. This is a result of the conservation of energy -- the loss of potential energy is concomittant with the increase in kinetic energy. It also commonly expressed as Kepler's second law of planetary motion, but Kepler's laws are really just observations of what things do in Newtonian gravitation.

To correct the recent abuse in notation, please recognize that it's impossible to assign a single speed to an object in an elliptical orbit, as it changes speed all the time. When a planet experiences drag, its total energy decreases, but its remaining energy is still conserved as per Kepler's laws.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

not a single planet in this solar system has a perfect circular orbit around the sun. parts of the orbits go in, some swing out; so at some points it's closer than at others all the way around, right? this means that there would be a difference all the way around, not just at the closest and furthest points.. so actually, my theory goes along with current observations.

No, your theory is contrary to those observations for reasons I have already explained in post you quoted. Your theory leads to a very different distance vs. speed relationship than does Newtonian gravitation.

- Warren

 

[Chronos]

The laws of planetary motion were first formulated by Kepler, who did so without benefit of a telescope or Newton's laws of gravity [Newton wasn't born yet]. See

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/kepler.html

Newton's laws corroborated Kepler's.

 

[JoeWade]

planets only experience drag if they're colliding with something... in space they're colliding with what?

there's no air

<-- face of guy with no air

 

[beatrix kiddo]

chroot u have a horrible misconception about my theory in that u think any sudden change in distance is going to result in instantaneous change in speed. the reason there is speed change is because the planet is absorbing neutrinos at a different rate.. (neutrino flux isn't the same everywhere in the solar system) however, just like the change in neutrino flux, the speed change will be gradual.. not instantaneous!

This is a result of the conservation of energy -- the loss of potential energy is concomittant with the increase in kinetic energy.

so as potential energy decreases... kinetic energy increases?? would this mean that energy does have something to do with gravity in the universe?

planets only experience drag if they're colliding with something... in space they're colliding with what?

there's no air

<-- face of guy with no air

that's ur first post?! what a waste...

 

[JoeWade]

would you rather my first post have been to call you a moron?

because i can go there if you want...

you seem to think that there's significant matter (air or particles or whatever) out there to cause SIGNIFICANT drag upon the planets, yet you have no basis for your assumptions. indeed scientific factual data backs up a position quite contrary to your notion.

so. where does your arrogance stem from?