Neutron, proton collision problem

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a collision between neutrons and nitrogen or hydrogen atoms, focusing on the conservation of momentum and kinetic energy in elastic collisions. The context is based on a historical physics experiment related to the discovery of the neutron.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the setup of the experiment and the equations governing the collisions. There are attempts to derive relationships between the velocities and masses of the particles involved. Questions arise regarding the interpretation of elastic collisions and the implications of mass in high-speed scenarios.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided clarifications on the equations used, while others are exploring how to derive specific relationships between variables. There is an ongoing inquiry into the derivation of an equation related to the velocities of the particles after collisions, indicating a productive exchange of ideas.

Contextual Notes

There are mentions of potential errors in the problem statement, such as discrepancies in the given velocities and mass definitions. Participants are also considering the implications of relativistic effects on mass as speeds approach that of light.

ofeyrpf
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The following problem appeared on the A2 Edexcel Physics unit 4 exam paper January 2012 question 18. The solution, as given by the exam board, is attached.

Question:
18. James Chadwick is credited with discovering the neutron in 1932.

Beryllium was bombarded with alpha particles, knocking neutrons out of the beryllium atoms. Chadwick placed various targets between the beryllium and a detector. Hydrogen and nitrogen atoms were knocked out of the targets by the neutrons and the kinetic energies of these atoms were measured by the detector.

(a) The maximum energy of a nitrogen atom wa found to be 1.2 MeV.

Show that the maximum velocity of the atom is about 4 x 106 m/s.

mass of nitrogen atom = 14u, where u = 1.66 x 10-27 kg


Solution:
The set up as I understand it is,
alpha --> Be --> neutron --> target --> Ni or H --> detector

v = sqrt(2(1.2x10-6x1.6x10-19)/(14x1.66x10-19)) = 4.06x10-6 m/s No problems here.

Question
(b)The mass of a neutron is Nu (where N is the relative mass of the neutron) and its initial velocity is x. the nitrogen atom, mass 14u, is initially stationary and is then knocked out of the target with a velocity, y, by a collision with a neutron.

(i) Show that the velocity, z, of the neutron after the collision can be written as

z = (Nx - 14y)/N​

Solution:
momentum before = momentum after

Nux = 14uy - Nuz

rearranging gives,

z = (Nx - 14y)/N No problems here.

Question
(ii)The collision between this neutron and the nitrogen atom is elastic. What is meant by an elastic collision?

Solution
In an elastic collision the kinetic energy is conserved. No problems here.

Question
(iii) Explain why the kinetic energy Ek of the nitrogen atom is given by

Ek = (Nu(x2 - z2)/(2)​


Solution:
Using conservation of kinetic energy,

EK(n) = Ek(Ni) + Ek(n)

(1/2)Nux2 = (1/2)14Nuy2 = (1/2)Nuz2

y2 = (x2 - y2)/(14)

Ek(Ni) = (1/2)14Nuy2

= (1/2)(14Nu(x2 - z2)/14)

= (Nu(x2 - z2)/(2)

For this calculation to work, the mass of the Ni has to be 14Nu but in the question it is given as 14u. That is the first thing I don't understand.

Question
(c) The two equations in (b) can be combined and z can be eliminated to give

y = (2Nx)/(N + 14)​

Solution
The question does not ask how this is done but I'd like to know and can't figure it out. I tried substituting

z = (Nx - 14y)/(N) into Ek = (Nu(x2 - z2))/(2)

and this gives,

(2Ek)/(Nu) = x2 - ((Nx - 14y)/(N))2

But this has an Ek in it, so I don't see how to get to the required y = (2nx)/(N + 14) This is the second problem I have, not understanding where this equation comes from.

Question
(i) The maximum velocity of hydrogen atoms knocked out by neutrons in the same experiment was 30 x 107 m/s. The mass of a hydrogen atom is 1u.

Show that the relative mass N of the neutron is 1.


Solution
There is an error in the question here. Instead of 30 x 107 m/s it should 3.0 x 107 m/s.

The equation given in the question applies to Nitrogen and can be rearranged to give

2Nx = yNi(N + 14) = 4.1 x 106Ni(N + 14)

yNi = 4.1 x 106 m/s. This is obtained from part (a).

For hydrogen then

2nx = yH(N + 1) = 3.0 x 107(N+1)

These two equation can be combined giving,

4.1 x 106Ni(N + 14) = 3.0 x 107(N+1)

from which N can be solved

N = (3 x 107-14 x 4.1 x 106)/(4.1 x 106 - 3 x 107)
= 1.05 which is approximately 1

Question
(ii) This equation can not be applied to all collisions in this experiment. Suggest why.

Solution
As the atoms approach the speed of light their mass does not remain constant, it increases.
 

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Last edited:
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ofeyrpf said:
(1/2)Nux2 = (1/2)14Nuy2 = (1/2)Nuz2
Shouldn't that read:
(1/2)Nux2 = (1/2)14uy2 + (1/2)Nuz2
?
 
Neutron, Ni, H, collision problem

Hi haruspex,

Thanks for your reply. Looking back on this post I can't believe how many typos I've made.

Yes you are correct it should read...

18. (b) (iii)

EK(n) = Ek(Ni) + Ek(n)

(1/2)Nux2 = (1/2)14uy2 + (1/2)Nuz2

14uy2 = Nu(x2 - z2)

y2 = N(x2 - z2)/14

Ek(Ni) = (1/2)14uy2

= (1/2)(14uN(x2 - z2)/14)

= Nu(x2 - z2)/(2)

So that is correct then, thanks.

Now if I could just figure out where they get the equation in part (c), I'd be happy.
 
Last edited:
For c, you have two equations:
Nx2=14y2+Nz2; Nz = Nx - 14y
Just eliminate z between them.
 
$$
Nx^2=14y^2+Nz^2\\
\mbox{and}\\
Nz=Nx-14y\\
\mbox{so,}\\
z^2=\frac{(Nx-14y)(Nx-14y)}{N^2}\\
=\frac{N^2x^2-28yNx+196y^2}{N^2}\\
\mbox{substituting this into the first equation gives,}\\
Nx^2=14y^2+N\left(\frac{N^2x^2-28yNx+196y^2}{N^2}\right)\\
0=Ny^2-2yNx+14y^2\\
2Nx=y(N+14)\\
y=\frac{2Nx}{n+14}
$$
Thanks for your help,

Shane
 
Last edited:
blah
 

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