I New interpretation for the double slit experiment with light?

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I recently saw this:
Abstract:
Classical theory asserts that several electromagnetic waves cannot interact with matter if they interfere destructively to zero, whereas quantum mechanics predicts a nontrivial light-matter dynamics even when the averageelectric field vanishes. Here, we show that in quantum optics, classical interference emerges from collectivebright and dark states of light, i.e., particular cases of two-mode binomial states, which are entangled superpositions of multi-mode photon-number states. This makes it possible to explain wave interference using theparticle description of light and the superposition principle for linear systems only. It also sheds new light on anold debate concerning the origin of complementarity
where they claim that they can interpret wave interference of light using the particle picture instead of the wave one, by including "dark photons" to explain the dark fringes in the pattern. The whole thing sounds off, but if the math is sound (at least they manage to publish it), is this any new really? Is it at least interpretationally interesting?

Edit: things that sound off:
In the context of cavity quantum electrodynamics, the states which carry photons but are unable to excite an atom were dubbed “generalized ground states” [11], but here we decide to name them perfectly dark states (PDSs) since the sensor cannot seethe field whenever it is in such a state.
Also how does it explain electron double slit experiment? Would that require flying holes or positrons?
 
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Physics news on Phys.org
Hossenfelder just made a video about this...

 
I think the paper uses an unusual terminology to make it look more interesting than it really is. "Dark photons" are not some new exotic type of photons, they are ordinary photons prepared in a special quantum superposed state so that a particular kind of detector does not see them. And more importantly, the paper only uses standard quantum theory (quantum optics), so they do not use "particle" description of light in any classical meaning of that word. The "particle" in their analysis is a quantum particle, which includes wave-like properties just like any other quantum particle. The interesting nontrivial aspect of the paper, however, is that interference for such special quantum states cannot be understood in terms of classical electromagnetic waves, because interesting things happen even at places at which the average electric field vanishes.
 
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pines-demon said:
Is it at least interpretationally interesting?
Interpretationally interesting thing is a demonstration that interference in quantum optics sometimes cannot be understood by classical optics, as interference of classical electromagnetic waves.
pines-demon said:
Also how does it explain electron double slit experiment? Would that require flying holes or positrons?
The paper says nothing about it, it only considers photons. Perhaps, in principle, something similar could be done for electrons, and positrons would not be needed for that. However it could not be too similar because electrons are fermions and interact with each other so you cannot create a multi-electron state similar to the corresponding multi-photon state, and also because the electron detectors work quite differently from the photon ones.
 
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pines-demon said:
Also how does it explain electron double slit experiment?
Sabine comments on this at 1:20 in her video.
 
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After some additional reading and thinking, let me present a more detailed discussion.

In the classical theory of light, described by classical Maxwell equations, interference happens due to the wavy nature of light. More specifically, dark regions of interference correspond to points where the electric field ##E(x)## and magnetic field ##B(x)## vanish.

In the first quantized theory of particles, such as electrons, the field ##\psi(x)## is no longer interpreted as a classical field, but as a probability amplitude. The probability of finding the particle at position ##x## is proportional to ##\psi^∗(x)\psi(x)##.

Can such a first quantized theory be applied to photons? Strictly speaking it cannot, photon must be described by a second quantized formalism. But for the sake of intuition let us cheat a bit and sketch how a first quantized theory of photon would look like. The electric field is real, so can be written as
$$E(x)=\psi(x)+\psi^∗(x)$$
where ##\psi(x)=E^+(x)## is complex. The ##E^+## denotes that its time-dependence involves only positive frequencies, i.e. oscillatory functions of the form ##e^{-i\omega t}##. Then in the first quantized theory, the probability of finding the photon at position ##x## would be proportional to
$$\psi^∗(x)\psi(x)=E^-(x)E^+(x)$$

In reality, the photons are described by the second quantized theory, i.e. quantum optics (which is a part of quantum electrodynamics). In this theory, strictly speaking, we cannot talk of probability to find the photon at position ##x##. But we can talk of probability that a detector at position ##x## will be excited. For a certain model of detector, under certain approximations, the probability of detector excitement at position ##x## is proportional to
$$\langle\Psi| \hat{E}^-(x)\hat{E}^+(x) |\Psi\rangle$$
This looks very similar to the first quantized expression above. However, now ##\hat{E}^+(x)## is an operator (essentially a photon destruction operator), while ## |\Psi\rangle## is a second quantized state of photons. Such a state can contain one photon, or two photons, or any number of photons, or even a state with uncertain number of photons.

When ##|\Psi\rangle## is a one-photon state, one obtains essentially the same result as one would expect from a first quantized theory. However, for some more complicated states, the results may differ from expectations based on first quantized theory.

Even more interesting is the deviation form classical theory. In the classical theory, if ##E^+(x)=0## for some ##x##, then also ##E^-(x)E^+(x)=0##. In the second quantized theory, by contrast, it can be the case that ##\langle\Psi| \hat{E}^+(x) |\Psi\rangle=0##, but
$$\langle\Psi| \hat{E}^-(x)\hat{E}^+(x) |\Psi\rangle \neq 0$$
In other words, the average field may be zero at some point, but the probability of detection may still be non-zero. This suggests that dark regions of interference may have a pattern very different from the classical one.

Now we can finally get to the result of this paper. Essentially, this paper constructs explicit states ##|\Psi\rangle## for which the suggestion above realizes, i.e., for which the second quantized dark regions of interference significantly differ from the classical ones. This explicitly demonstrates that interference in quantum optics cannot be understood as interference of classical waves. We knew it before, but this paper demonstrates it more explicitly. That's interesting, but not revolutionary.

At the end, let me give two references that I used. Instead of the original paper published in PRL, I have used the arXiv version
https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.05512v3
For basics of quantum optics, including the theory of detection, I have used
L.E. Ballentine, Quantum Mechanics A Modern Development, Chapter 19
 
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Demystifier said:
After some additional reading and thinking, let me present a more detailed discussion.

In the classical theory of light, described by classical Maxwell equations, interference happens due to the wavy nature of light. More specifically, dark regions of interference correspond to points where the electric field ##E(x)## and magnetic field ##B(x)## vanish.

In the first quantized theory of particles, such as electrons, the field ##\psi(x)## is no longer interpreted as a classical field, but as a probability amplitude. The probability of finding the particle at position ##x## is proportional to ##\psi^∗(x)\psi(x)##.

Can such a first quantized theory be applied to photons? Strictly speaking it cannot, photon must be described by a second quantized formalism. But for the sake of intuition let us cheat a bit and sketch how a first quantized theory of photon would look like. The electric field is real, so can be written as
$$E(x)=\psi(x)+\psi^∗(x)$$
where ##\psi(x)=E^+(x)## is complex. The ##E^+## denotes that its time-dependence involves only positive frequencies, i.e. oscillatory functions of the form ##e^{-i\omega t}##. Then in the first quantized theory, the probability of finding the photon at position ##x## would be proportional to
$$\psi^∗(x)\psi(x)=E^-(x)E^+(x)$$

In reality, the photons are described by the second quantized theory, i.e. quantum optics (which is a part of quantum electrodynamics). In this theory, strictly speaking, we cannot talk of probability to find the photon at position ##x##. But we can talk of probability that a detector at position ##x## will be excited. For a certain model of detector, under certain approximations, the probability of detector excitement at position ##x## is proportional to
$$\langle\Psi| \hat{E}^-(x)\hat{E}^+(x) |\Psi\rangle$$
This looks very similar to the first quantized expression above. However, now ##\hat{E}^+(x)## is an operator (essentially a photon destruction operator), while ## |\Psi\rangle## is a second quantized state of photons. Such a state can contain one photon, or two photons, or any number of photons, or even a state with uncertain number of photons.

When ##|\Psi\rangle## is a one-photon state, one obtains essentially the same result as one would expect from a first quantized theory. However, for some more complicated states, the results may differ from expectations based on first quantized theory.

Even more interesting is the deviation form classical theory. In the classical theory, if ##E^+(x)=0## for some ##x##, then also ##E^-(x)E^+(x)=0##. In the second quantized theory, by contrast, it can be the case that ##\langle\Psi| \hat{E}^+(x) |\Psi\rangle=0##, but
$$\langle\Psi| \hat{E}^-(x)\hat{E}^+(x) |\Psi\rangle \neq 0$$
In other words, the average field may be zero at some point, but the probability of detection may still be non-zero. This suggests that dark regions of interference may have a pattern very different from the classical one.

Now we can finally get to the result of this paper. Essentially, this paper constructs explicit states ##|\Psi\rangle## for which the suggestion above realizes, i.e., for which the second quantized dark regions of interference significantly differ from the classical ones. This explicitly demonstrates that interference in quantum optics cannot be understood as interference of classical waves. We knew it before, but this paper demonstrates it more explicitly. That's interesting, but not revolutionary.

At the end, let me give two references that I used. Instead of the original paper published in PRL, I have used the arXiv version
https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.05512v3
For basics of quantum optics, including the theory of detection, I have used
L.E. Ballentine, Quantum Mechanics A Modern Development, Chapter 19
Got it, so in second quantization, if we were to calculate the number of photons in a point of the screen (Fock basis), we will have non-zero number of photons, even if classically we will have zero intensity. Two questions, how does that explain interference in itself? and can we measure ##\langle E\rangle## directly?
 
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Demystifier said:
this paper constructs explicit states ##|\Psi\rangle## for which the suggestion above realizes, i.e., for which the second quantized dark regions of interference significantly differ from the classical ones.
This is interesting theoretically, but for it to make a difference as far as actual double slit experiments that have been done with light up to now, one would have to show that the light sources that have been used would produce such states. Do they? I wouldn't think so, since the states produced by light sources used to date are coherent states, which aren't the kind of states the paper constructs. And if I'm correct, then the paper's claim that its theoretical framework can be used to interpret double slit experiments that have already been done seems to me to be wrong: it's using the wrong states.
 
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PeterDonis said:
This is interesting theoretically, but for it to make a difference as far as actual double slit experiments that have been done with light up to now, one would have to show that the light sources that have been used would produce such states. Do they? I wouldn't think so, since the states produced by light sources used to date are coherent states, which aren't the kind of states the paper constructs. And if I'm correct, then the paper's claim that its theoretical framework can be used to interpret double slit experiments that have already been done seems to me to be wrong: it's using the wrong states.
The authors briefly discuss how such an experiment might be possible to perform in the future. Regarding existing experiments, even if they can be explained by both classical and quantum optics, the explanation by quantum optics seems much more convincing, because there are many other experiments which show that quantum optics is more fundamental than classical optics.
 
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pines-demon said:
Got it, so in second quantization, if we were to calculate the number of photons in a point of the screen (Fock basis), we will have non-zero number of photons, even if classically we will have zero intensity. Two questions, how does that explain interference in itself? and can we measure ##\langle E\rangle## directly?
In quantum theory mean values are not measured by single measurements, only by large ensembles of measurements, in that sense ##\langle E\rangle## can't be measured directly. But maybe by "direct" measurement you mean something else. For a more detailed explanation of interference, see the book by Ballentine, pages 560-564.
 
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Demystifier said:
the explanation by quantum optics seems much more convincing
Not if that explanation depends on using states which don't actually occur in the experiments that the explanation claims to explain. An explanation using the wrong state can't be right. It might work for some different experiment that does prepare that state, but it can't possibly be right for experiments whose light sources produce some other state.
 
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Demystifier said:
L.E. Ballentine, Quantum Mechanics: A Modern Development, Chapter 19

For those without, IMHO, that essential textbook, see:
https://www.physics.usu.edu/torre/3700_Spring_2015/What_is_a_photon.pdf

That is for the EM Field. To apply the same paradigm to electrons (and indeed any particle), a technique known as second quantisation is employed.



This leads to QED..

Thanks
Bill
 
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PeterDonis said:
Not if that explanation depends on using states which don't actually occur in the experiments that the explanation claims to explain. An explanation using the wrong state can't be right. It might work for some different experiment that does prepare that state, but it can't possibly be right for experiments whose light sources produce some other state.
The paper does not offer a new explanation of interference experiments. It just uses the quantum optics explanation, which is old. What is new in the paper is that it applies this old explanation to a new state, chosen such that the differences between the predictions of classical and quantum optics are more obvious. The paper also uses some new terminology (dark photons) which creates an illusion that it involves some genuinely new explanation of interference, but that's just a new name for an old thing. So to make the long story short, their explanation of old interference experiments does not depend on using new states.
 
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Demystifier said:
The paper does not offer a new explanation of interference experiments.
It sure seems to, since the title says "the quantum origin of classical interference". No caveats there about how this "quantum origin" explanation only applies to certain states that nobody has ever actually produced in experiments yet. The paper is claiming to explain "classical interference" generally.
 
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PeterDonis said:
It sure seems to, since the title says "the quantum origin of classical interference". No caveats there about how this "quantum origin" explanation only applies to certain states that nobody has ever actually produced in experiments yet. The paper is claiming to explain "classical interference" generally.
Those quoted claims do not look as something new. It is widely accepted among physicists that classical physics is just an approximation, and that ultimately all classical phenomena have a quantum origin. Indeed, the work of Glauber and others explained "classical interference" in terms of quantum optics in the 60's.
 
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Demystifier said:
Those quoted claims do not look as something new.
I'm not sure I agree, but I'll have to read through the paper in more detail to see how much my misgivings on an initial reading are justified.
 
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