Now it's Go Ahead, Ask Me - I Can Tell You

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lisab
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Now it's "Go Ahead, Ask Me - I Can Tell You!"

As of today, gays and lesbians can serve openly in the US military. It's long in coming, but I understand that changing a culture takes time.

I just wanted to say, I'm very proud of the military for making this move. Hooah!
 
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Discussion



Why is this very important to you Lisab? Equal rights for everyone or is it something else that seems unique in this situation?
 


lisab said:
As of today, gays and lesbians can serve openly in the US military. It's long in coming, but I understand that changing a culture takes time.

I just wanted to say, I'm very proud of the military for making this move. Hooah!

I don't think the military ever banned gays or lesbians, that was Congress that did that. In the 1990s, Clinton pushed to have the ban removed, but it didn't really pan out and instead became the "Dont Ask, Don't Tell" mantra. Then with President Obama, he pushed to have it ended.
 


I am a Vietnam Veteran. In my opinion, what matters is a person's competence: does he or she have the skills to do the job? What they do after "work" is not important to the mission.
 


I have worked with some very competent gay people. I have also worked with some very competent and smart black people, though people younger than me or brought up in different environments might have been surprised about that statement, too. Some prejudices die very hard, slow deaths.
 


I fully agree with Lisa, every step to phase out discrimination of whatever kind, is another step away from primitive barbarian herd instincts.

But then again, I have seen things :eek:

hear-see-speak-no-evil1.jpg
 


Lacy33 said:
Why is this very important to you Lisab? Equal rights for everyone or is it something else that seems unique in this situation?

People should be judged on their abilities and character. The gender of one's stablemate is totally irrelevant.
 


Who you have sex with is not as important as how well you can kill people.
To me this is the only criteria, as it pertains to being a soldier. IMO

I never understood to whole problem with gender choice in the first place. To me, it's all normal and natural.
( I am a child of the 50's .. grew up in the free sex age of the 60's , 70's )

It's been interesting to watch the evolution, in my life time, of the attitudes of society in respect to sexual practices that are thousands of years old.
 


lisab said:
People should be judged on their abilities and character. The gender of one's stablemate is totally irrelevant.

That sounds correct to me Lisab.
I would not walk on the scene and announce I am a hetrozexual. Who cares if I can do the task I am there to do.

I do I have to have a "right" to walk into an environment and announce. Here I am and I am a hetrozexual. Respect me. But why? Why?


Why is it so important to be identified by what is important to me in the bedroom? forest, barn, beach, garden...

Why is it so important to the young peoples today to turn everything inside out. What use to be modest is being pushed out to be made a "right" of.

I'm now going back to being an orthodox Jew. I still wear Jewish clothes. But most young orthodox people at least the women wear clothes including the wigs that blend into very modern society. To be honest you would not know a very religious woman from a hottie who has a conservitive style of dress.

They do not walk around saying I have a "right" to be orthodox.
Why does the gay community feel a need to share their personal zexual feeling as if it defines their community. Seems to me like being nudest who has a right to be bare, but they are not fighting to be bare in the service.

I would really like to know why. I am not trying to start up. Yes I have gay friends. But I do NOT talk zex with them and why would I. I don't talk zex with any man.
And finally why do I write "zex?" Because I still have a right to be somewhat modest about what I want to talk about when I wish to do so. :blushing:
Thanks.
 


Lacy33 said:
That sounds correct to me Lisab.
I would not walk on the scene and announce I am a hetrozexual. Who cares if I can do the task I am there to do.

I do I have to have a "right" to walk into an environment and announce. Here I am and I am a hetrozexual. Respect me. But why? Why?


Why is it so important to be identified by what is important to me in the bedroom? forest, barn, beach, garden...

Why is it so important to the young peoples today to turn everything inside out. What use to be modest is being pushed out to be made a "right" of.

I'm now going back to being an orthodox Jew. I still wear Jewish clothes. But most young orthodox people at least the women wear clothes including the wigs that blend into very modern society. To be honest you would not know a very religious woman from a hottie who has a conservitive style of dress.

They do not walk around saying I have a "right" to be orthodox.
Why does the gay community feel a need to share their personal zexual feeling as if it defines their community. Seems to me like being nudest who has a right to be bare, but they are not fighting to be bare in the service.

I would really like to know why. I am not trying to start up. Yes I have gay friends. But I do NOT talk zex with them and why would I. I don't talk zex with any man.
And finally why do I write "zex?" Because I still have a right to be somewhat modest about what I want to talk about when I wish to do so. :blushing:
Thanks.

People announce that they are heterosexual ALL THE FREAKING TIME. Every time you've ever heard a male mention his wife or girlfriend, every time you hear a woman mention her boyfriend or husband, they're announcing they're heterosexual. Every time you see a picture of a couple on a desk, or a spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend picks them up from work...

You get the point. Until now, homosexuals in the military had to use the incorrect pronoun when describing their partners. It is NOT being immodest for a man to say "he" when referring to his partner any more than it is immodest for a straight male to use "she" in the same situation.
 


Lacy33 said:
That sounds correct to me Lisab.
I would not walk on the scene and announce I am a hetrozexual. Who cares if I can do the task I am there to do.

I do I have to have a "right" to walk into an environment and announce. Here I am and I am a hetrozexual. Respect me. But why? Why?Why is it so important to be identified by what is important to me in the bedroom? forest, barn, beach, garden...

Why is it so important to the young peoples today to turn everything inside out. What use to be modest is being pushed out to be made a "right" of.

I'm now going back to being an orthodox Jew. I still wear Jewish clothes. But most young orthodox people at least the women wear clothes including the wigs that blend into very modern society. To be honest you would not know a very religious woman from a hottie who has a conservitive style of dress.

They do not walk around saying I have a "right" to be orthodox.
Why does the gay community feel a need to share their personal zexual feeling as if it defines their community. Seems to me like being nudest who has a right to be bare, but they are not fighting to be bare in the service.

I would really like to know why. I am not trying to start up. Yes I have gay friends. But I do NOT talk zex with them and why would I. I don't talk zex with any man.
And finally why do I write "zex?" Because I still have a right to be somewhat modest about what I want to talk about when I wish to do so. :blushing:
Thanks.

In my experience, gays don't share their sexuality any more than heteros...in fact I'd say they keep their private lives more hidden, because they can never be sure of what reaction they will get. But some heteros share their sexual preferences *a lot*...like Jack mentioned, just think about how often women you know bring up "my husband" in casual conversation.

I'm just glad that gays and lesbians will no longer lose their jobs if their sexuality becomes known.
 


Ignoring all other issues, I had always understood a significant component of the ban on military service was logistical -- bunking a homosexual man with other men being quite analogous to (and arguably more severe than) bunking a heterosexual man with women. Has this suddenly become unimportant?
 


Hurkyl said:
Ignoring all other issues, I had always understood a significant component of the ban on military service was logistical -- bunking a homosexual man with other men being quite analogous to (and arguably more severe than) bunking a heterosexual man with women. Has this suddenly become unimportant?

I don't think that was part of the issue at all. When it was still "Don't ask, don't tell", then didn't it also happen that homosexual men bunked with men?? It was only not known.
 


Hurkyl said:
Ignoring all other issues, I had always understood a significant component of the ban on military service was logistical -- bunking a homosexual man with other men being quite analogous to (and arguably more severe than) bunking a heterosexual man with women. Has this suddenly become unimportant?

I suppose it's because most humans are not like rutting chimpanzees.

Homosexuals have been serving alongside heterosexuals for...well, for as long as heterosexuals have been serving. I guess this admittedly sensitive issue has repeatedly been dealt with, on a case-by-case basis.

Why would mixing homosexual men with heterosexual men be "more severe" than mixing men and women?
 


lisab said:
I'm just glad that gays and lesbians will no longer lose their jobs if their sexuality becomes known.

No matter how many times B.Elliot leaves his laptop open and his douche-bag sailor roomies post that he is gay, one, more..., time...!

I swear to god, that if facebook existed back in the 70's/80's, we'd have been doing the same thing.

No one with half a brain cell gave an F back then. No one with half a brain cell should give one now.

-------------------------------
my apologies to those people with only half a brain cell...
 


Big reason we didn't bunk men and women together was to prevent the "normal heterosexual males" from raping the females.

I doubt that the "normal heterosexual males" will be attracted to and rape the gay male. I doubt the gay male will be attacking and raping his hetero bunkmates.

It's highly likely you had gay classmates in your gym class, in the public bathroom, standing next to you at the urinals, at the gym, your doctor. Would you rather know?
 


Evo said:
Big reason we didn't bunk men and women together was to prevent the "normal heterosexual males" from raping the females.

I doubt that the "normal heterosexual males" will be attracted to and rape the gay male. I doubt the gay male will be attacking and raping his hetero bunkmates.

It's highly likely you had gay classmates in your gym class, in the public bathroom, standing next to you at the urinals, at the gym, your doctor. Would you rather know?

For three years, I went to an all-women martial arts school in Seattle. I was in the minority, as a hetero woman. There was just one dressing room, we all dressed together...it was as normal as the dressing room at the YMCA down the road.

Routine tasks such as using the toilet or changing into workout clothes...these are not sexual activities, for gays or for straights.
 


OK, Thank you Lisab and Jack. Now I think like you. I have the words to understand the logic. Perhaps not my logic but the logic that we are discussing.

And one thing Lisab, In NYC, this population is very zex oriented and open. Do I compare the community I find this in as like a hetro zexual "red Light district?" But this is an area where this population is free to express themselves almost without restriction. As this last years gay parade a man and woman were dressed in only a couple pieces of duct tape. The woman who was very heavy wore tape only covering the nipples and to the bottom like a menstrual pad.

For example, I live only steps off the street to the gay parade for every year. Much of that parade still presents itself as men and women wearing little and dancing atop floats grinding and thrusting the business at people standing watching the parade. That would be the gay parade.

The Mexican parade goes down the street at the other corner. The Iranian, Indian, Phillipino parade the same street as the Mexican parade. Madison Ave. And many more go down both streets. We go to most of them if we are home. Why not they are in our front yard.
In NONE of the other cultural parades that I mentioned do you see that zex orientation. This is why I feel so strongly that a culture as it presents on the streets on NYC shares what is most important to the community and the traditions they have cherished.

The Penis is very important in our tradition! Oh Goodness yes. But I am yet to see an Israeli or Jewish parade where the mohel (mohel is a Jewish man who performs the ritual circumcision) works the crowd at a parade waving around a little plastic penis. :bugeye: lol
Now what am I not seeing according to the new and improved way of thinking? Thanks
 


Evo said:
Big reason we didn't bunk men and women together was to prevent the "normal heterosexual males" from raping the females.

I doubt that the "normal heterosexual males" will be attracted to and rape the gay male. I doubt the gay male will be attacking and raping his hetero bunkmates.

It's highly likely you had gay classmates in your gym class, in the public bathroom, standing next to you at the urinals, at the gym, your doctor. Would you rather know?

Evo, I just got home last night from spending some time in tramua ICU for a little heart something. I saw and heard a lot there while I was attached to all manner of lights and buzzers.
Evo, the second night I was in there they rushed in a man, a gay man who had indeed been rapped and sodomized with an object. He was in very bad shape. I listened best I could to what a gay doctor was saying to the other doctors about how a gay man gets rapped by gay and straight men and this situation seemed to involve both. I think at different places. Sad. They didn't keep him in the next room for long before he ws rushed off to OR. He was shredded.

I for one would not think an openly gay man would be safe bunking in the service. Women are getting hurt in the service now. You think a gay man will be safer because he made his gayness public in the service?
 


I don't think the ban on gays in the military was regarding sexual issues - I thought the ban originated from the time when homosexuality was considered a mental disease in popular medicine?

(DADT was under a different pretense I'm pretty sure)
 


Lacy33 said:
OK, Thank you Lisab and Jack. Now I think like you. I have the words to understand the logic. Perhaps not my logic but the logic that we are discussing.

And one thing Lisab, In NYC, this population is very zex oriented and open. Do I compare the community I find this in as like a hetro zexual "red Light district?" But this is an area where this population is free to express themselves almost without restriction. As this last years gay parade a man and woman were dressed in only a couple pieces of duct tape. The woman who was very heavy wore tape only covering the nipples and to the bottom like a menstrual pad.

For example, I live only steps off the street to the gay parade for every year. Much of that parade still presents itself as men and women wearing little and dancing atop floats grinding and thrusting the business at people standing watching the parade. That would be the gay parade.

The Mexican parade goes down the street at the other corner. The Iranian, Indian, Phillipino parade the same street as the Mexican parade. Madison Ave. And many more go down both streets. We go to most of them if we are home. Why not they are in our front yard.
In NONE of the other cultural parades that I mentioned do you see that zex orientation. This is why I feel so strongly that a culture as it presents on the streets on NYC shares what is most important to the community and the traditions they have cherished.

The Penis is very important in our tradition! Oh Goodness yes. But I am yet to see an Israeli or Jewish parade where the mohel (mohel is a Jewish man who performs the ritual circumcision) works the crowd at a parade waving around a little plastic penis. :bugeye: lol
Now what am I not seeing according to the new and improved way of thinking? Thanks

I don't think the New York pride parade is at all representative of mainstream 'gay culture', assuming there is such a thing as gay culture. I went to the Gay Pride Parade this year in Seattle, and most - I mean, about 75% - of the entrants were corporations. Like, 10 people wearing AT&T t-shirts walking along, throwing beads and candy to the crowd. Quite a different atmosphere here in the 'wild' West!

Imagine attending the Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans, and basing your opinion of heterosexual people on what you see there...you might think we're all a bunch of breast-baring, fire-plug-humping, drunken hedonists :biggrin:.
 


lisab said:
I suppose it's because most humans are not like rutting chimpanzees.
Try that with 18-22 year old humans for six months or a year in close quarters day and night under stress and occasional bursts of lethal risk. Then hang out a tease like sex, or drugs for that matter.
 


lisab said:
I don't think the New York pride parade is at all representative of mainstream 'gay culture', assuming there is such a thing as gay culture. I went to the Gay Pride Parade this year in Seattle, and most - I mean, about 75% - of the entrants were corporations. Like, 10 people wearing AT&T t-shirts walking along, throwing beads and candy to the crowd. Quite a different atmosphere here in the 'wild' West!

Imagine attending the Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans, and basing your opinion of heterosexual people on what you see there...you might think we're all a bunch of breast-baring, fire-plug-humping, drunken hedonists :biggrin:.


LOL, good points.
 


Lacy33 said:
Google "gay culture." :-p
You realize that anybody with any ax to grind can game Google's algorithms to make their attitudes and prejudices pop up in a normal search, right? If you doubt this, Google on Santorum. Mr. Rick has been pandering to the Christian right all during the run-up to his certainly-failed candidacy for president. After he had several times railed against homosexuality as if it were deviant, even criminal behavior such as child-molestation, a very smart and determined person set up a web-site to define his name as something that Santorum would find as repugnant as can be.

A Vietnam-vet friend of mine was a ship-board technician in the Navy. His closest work-mate was gay and there was no problem between them. They were quite open about their shore-side activities when they got leave. My friend is my age and he has been married about 5 times now (always seems to get married instead of shacking up) and always to women in the same age range (young). I bumped into him a couple of weeks ago at the gas station, and he had his 4-year-old son (mother in mid-20's) with him in the truck.

Even us hicks from the woods know enough to leave our friends' and work-mates' personal lives alone. The people with the problems aren't the gay folks. The problem resides with the people who are determined to foist their "morals" on others and who condemn homosexuality with some kind of faith-driven certitude.

Everybody who is fit to serve and wants to serve should be allowed to serve. Our military should reflect our country, and not some religion-based "ideal".
 


lisab said:
Why would mixing homosexual men with heterosexual men be "more severe" than mixing men and women?

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but would you want to share a locker room with men, even if they were completely 100% professional? Similarly, a lot of men just are uncomfortable about having to share such a facility with men who could be attracted to them.
 


turbo said:
A Vietnam-vet friend of mine was a ship-board technician in the Navy. His closest work-mate was gay and there was no problem between them. They were quite open about their shore-side activities when they got leave. My friend is my age and he has been married about 5 times now (always seems to get married instead of shacking up) and always to women in the same age range (young). I bumped into him a couple of weeks ago at the gas station, and he had his 4-year-old son (mother in mid-20's) with him in the truck.

Sounds like quite the ladies man!

Even us hicks from the woods know enough to leave our friends' and work-mates' personal lives alone. The people with the problems aren't the gay folks. The problem resides with the people who are determined to foist their "morals" on others and who condemn homosexuality with some kind of faith-driven certitude.

Everybody who is fit to serve and wants to serve should be allowed to serve. Our military should reflect our country, and not some religion-based "ideal".

I agree.
 


Lacy33 said:
I for one would not think an openly gay man would be safe bunking in the service. Women are getting hurt in the service now. You think a gay man will be safer because he made his gayness public in the service?

There are plenty of gay men "out" in the service. There were plenty "out" even before DADT. There are no stories that I'm aware of of them getting hurt by their fellow servicemen.

Here's a heartwarming video for you guys. Note that he says near the end that everybody on his base knows, and they haven't given him any crap about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVAgz6iyK6A
 


this has been interesting. I'm sorry I can't see the video. Turbo, Iwould never try to out "old story" you. And I only meant to see myself if there was a "gay culture" when finding some things when I did.. Was really for Lisa not to continue to haggle with people who were not before that in the conversation. Turbo your a nice person. Thank you for allowing me to understand something that had been heavy on my mind for years. But being in the middle of a very permissable environment in last few years was impossible for me to get a more objective voice. Lisab was able to show me that.
Than you all for letting me voice my hatred, intollerence, and disgust over nothing.
Ya all have good day! I can see Alaska from my back porch!