On local trivializations and transition functions of fibre bundles

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around local trivializations and transition functions of fibre bundles, specifically focusing on the example of the bundle defined by the interval [-1,1] over the circle S^1. Participants explore the implications of different choices of local trivializations and transition functions, questioning the limitations and characteristics of these choices.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why both transition function choices are not presented for the A sector, suggesting that they may not add anything significant to the example.
  • Another participant states that transition functions must be isomorphisms of the fiber, arguing that multiplication by a real number does not satisfy this condition for the unit interval.
  • It is proposed that different structure groups can yield the same total space of the bundle but represent different bundles due to their distinct structure groups.
  • One participant suggests that for a line bundle over the circle, the structure group can be either trivial or Z/2Z, leading to either a trivial bundle (cylinder) or a non-orientable bundle (Moebius band).
  • Another participant seeks clarification on the implications of restricting the transition function to a certain range of values, questioning how this affects the reducibility of the structure group.
  • There is a correction regarding the range of values for the transition function, with a participant acknowledging a mistake and seeking further clarification on the implications of their proposed mapping.
  • It is noted that multiplying by any number other than 1 or -1 cannot be a homeomorphism of a finite interval, reinforcing the limitations of certain transition functions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of transition functions and their implications for the structure group of the fibre bundle. There is no consensus on the validity of certain proposed transition functions or their effects on the structure group.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations regarding the conditions under which transition functions can be considered homeomorphisms, as well as the implications of different choices for the structure group.

lennyleonard
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Hi everyone!

I would like to ask you some clarifications on an explicit example of local trivializations and transition functions of fibre bundles: namely on the [-1,1]\hookrightarrow E\rightarrow S^1 bundle (which I guess is the simplest possible example).

Following Nakahara (chapter 9, example 9.1) we pick U_1=(0,2\pi)\,\,U_2=(-\pi,\pi) as an open covering for the base space S^1 and label A=(0,\pi)\,\,B=(\pi,2\pi) the intersection U_1\cap U_2.

Now Nakahara takes as local trivialization on A
\phi_1^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)\,\,\text{and}\,\,\phi_2^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)
for \theta\in A \,\,t\in [-1,1], then he says that on the B section we have two possible choices, namely

1)\,\,\,\phi_1^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)\,\,\text{and}\,\,\phi_2^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)
2)\,\,\,\phi_1^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)\,\,\text{and}\,\,\phi_2^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,-t).

Now, my questions:

1) Shouldn't we have both this possibilities for the A sector as well? Does Nakahara simply not state them because they would not add anything to the example (you end up with either a cylinder or the moebius strip anyway :) )

2) Why, disregarding the specific sector (A or B), are we limited to the two choices aboce, i.e.
\phi_1^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)\,\,\text{and}\,\,\phi_2^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,\pm t)
?

I mean, couldn't I pick the choice

3)\,\,\,\phi_1^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)\,\,\text{and}\,\,\phi_2^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,\frac{t}{a})
with a\in\mathcal R/\{0\}??
In this way we should have for the transition function t_{12}(\theta):t\rightarrow \frac{t}{a}, so that with the final choice of

1)\,\,\,\phi_1^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)\,\,\text{and}\,\,\phi_2^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)
on the A sector and
3)\,\,\,\phi_1^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,t)\,\,\text{and}\,\,\phi_2^{-1}(u)=(\theta ,\frac{t}{a})
on the B sector the bundle would have the structure group G=\{e,1/a\} which is something different from the cylinder or the Moebious strip!



Where am I mistaking??

Thanks to all of you for your time!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The transition functions must be isomorphisms of the fiber. Multiplication by a real is not even a homeomorphism of the unit interval

But you can take the whole real line as the fiber and then multiplication by a real will be a linear isomorphism of the fiber thus making the bundle a one dimensional vector bundle.

That said, you are correct that different structure groups will give the same total space of the bundle but different bundles because they have different structure groups.

However for a line bundle over the circle, the structure group can be reduced to either the trivial group or to Z/2Z. In the first case the bundle is trivial and the total space is a cylinder. In the second case, the bundle is non-orientable and the linear isomorphism in Z/2Z is just multiplication by -1. This is the Mobius band.

Try going through the cases you pose and see which ones can be reduced to the trivial group and which can be reduced to Z/2Z but no further.

Another instructive example is the twisted torus.

Take a cylinder and identify the opposite boundary circles by a 180 degree rotation. If you consider the structure group to be the whole circle then this bundle is trivial. That is, its structure group can be reduced to the identity map. If you consider the structure group to be Z/2Z ( the square of a 180 degree rotation is the identity) then this bundle is not trivial.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for your kind answer lavinia! But I'm afraid I'm going to need a little more help to get to the bottom of this :)

Is it now clear that i cannot take a\in\mathbb R/0, but what is I restrict to 1\leq |a|<\infty? This gives indeed a homomorphism beween the fiber! I really cannot see how such transition function can give a structure group ONLY reducible to e and \mathbb Z_2

Thanks again for your help!
 
lennyleonard said:
Thank you for your kind answer lavinia! But I'm afraid I'm going to need a little more help to get to the bottom of this :)

Is it now clear that i cannot take a\in\mathbb R/0, but what is I restrict to 1\leq |a|<\infty? This gives indeed a homomorphism beween the fiber! I really cannot see how such transition function can give a structure group ONLY reducible to e and \mathbb Z_2

Thanks again for your help!

Numbers with absolute value greater than 1 still don't work. Multiplication moves the end points either shrinking them or expanding them.
 
Ok, I totally messed up-- I meant |a|\leq 1, a\neq 0.

What about this mapping?

Sorry for the inconvenience :) :) :)
 
Multiplying by any number other than 1 or -1 can not be a homeomorphism of a finite interval.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
7K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
5K