On the formation of a black hole due to high kinetic energy

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the relationship between high kinetic energy and the formation of black holes, specifically questioning whether different observers can perceive the same object as a black hole based on their relative motion. Participants clarify that while energy and momentum influence spacetime curvature, the existence of a black hole is an invariant feature of spacetime, independent of the observer's frame of reference. The conversation emphasizes that the stress-energy tensor, particularly in the context of general relativity (GR), plays a crucial role in understanding these phenomena.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of general relativity (GR) concepts, particularly the stress-energy tensor.
  • Familiarity with the Schwarzschild solution and its implications for black hole formation.
  • Knowledge of relativistic kinetic energy and its representation in GR.
  • Basic grasp of geometric invariants in Lorentzian manifolds.
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the Einstein field equations and their implications for black hole physics.
  • Learn about the properties of the stress-energy tensor in different frames of reference.
  • Explore the Schwarzschild radius and its significance in black hole formation.
  • Investigate the concept of geometric invariants in general relativity.
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Students and professionals in physics, particularly those studying general relativity, astrophysics, and anyone interested in the fundamental principles governing black hole formation and spacetime dynamics.

  • #31
Joker93 said:
Do you mean that the kinetic energy is $$T^{00}$$?
If so, wouldn't every component of the energy-momentum tensor contribute to the formation of the black hole?

No, but here lies the origin of your confusion. See below.

Joker93 said:
As for your question if I can see how the energy is contant, just multiply both sides by $$ g_{ij}$$, right?

I don't know what you are aiming at here.Anyway, in case anyone stumbles on this thread later, I would like to point out what I believe to be the flaw in the argument. PAllen has already said it and Orodruin has hinted at it:

Kinetic energy in Newtonian mechanics is a relative concept, i.e. it depends on the chosen frame of reference. The `energy' that curves spacetime in general relativity - and here you have to be very careful what you mean, the enery-momentum tensor field (not it's components!) is but one possible choice - cannot be a relative, but must be an absolute concept in the sense that one has to be able to express it in terms of geometric invariants. This is dictated by the general principle of relativity, which is most conveniently expressed as "Fundamental laws of nature have to be formulated in a coordinate-independent manner" or more colloquially "Physics shouldn't depend on how you chose to describe it".

It is also worth pointing out that the concept of energy is an excellent example of where general relativity and Newtonian mechanics are incommensurable. This is a concept popularized by the philosopher Thomas Kuhn and generally means that concepts in two different scientific theories cannot be compared, because the conceptual framework is fundamentally different. So even though you may use the word energy in GR and Newtonian mechanics in a sloppy way, they mean fundamentally different things in the respective theories.
 
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  • #32
Geometry_dude said:
No, but here lies the origin of your confusion. See below.
I don't know what you are aiming at here.Anyway, in case anyone stumbles on this thread later, I would like to point out what I believe to be the flaw in the argument. PAllen has already said it and Orodruin has hinted at it:

Kinetic energy in Newtonian mechanics is a relative concept, i.e. it depends on the chosen frame of reference. The `energy' that curves spacetime in general relativity - and here you have to be very careful what you mean, the enery-momentum tensor field (not it's components!) is but one possible choice - cannot be a relative, but must be an absolute concept in the sense that one has to be able to express it in terms of geometric invariants. This is dictated by the general principle of relativity, which is most conveniently expressed as "Fundamental laws of nature have to be formulated in a coordinate-independent manner" or more colloquially "Physics shouldn't depend on how you chose to describe it".

It is also worth pointing out that the concept of energy is an excellent example of where general relativity and Newtonian mechanics are incommensurable. This is a concept popularized by the philosopher Thomas Kuhn and generally means that concepts in two different scientific theories cannot be compared, because the conceptual framework is fundamentally different. So even though you may use the word energy in GR and Newtonian mechanics in a sloppy way, they mean fundamentally different things in the respective theories.
"I don't know what you are aiming at here"
Then how would one prove it?
 
  • #33
Joker93 said:
Then how would one prove it?

There was a misunderstanding here. I did not intend to ask you whether you know why the expression is constant - obviously ##c^2## is constant -, but rather why I would say that (modulo the factor) I would call this the relativistic kinetic energy.

The reason is that it is the geometric invariant in GR that comes 'closest' to ##\vec v ^2 /2## in Newtonian mechanics.
 
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