On the issue of kids not pursuing engineering/science/math these days

[DukeofDuke]

Yeah but... when people start to realize this, won't they all go in that direction? And then it will create a surplus in that field that requires "less effort," thus driving salaries down.

Haven't we seen this with law degrees? Soon it will happen to undergraduate business?

Not unless our system radically changes. Science is usually not short term profitable, in that gains are hard to measure and only happen over time. Modern economics demands quarterly bottom lines...so unless we have a systematic overhaul the big bucks probably won't go to the scientists in the room.

 

[chiro]

In australia we are trying to get more scientists and engineers by reducing the cost of the degree.

I've found when speaking to other people when they find out I'm doing math is that they say "Ohhh" and then they say something along the lines "Wow you must be smart".

It seems that a lot of people have bad experiences with learning math and although math does not equal science, a lot of scientific endeavours require math in order to think logically and move from idea to establishing a theory or conjecture or hypothesis.

Personally I think the only way this is going to change is to get skilled people in math (think uni professors and lecturers) to go to schools and teach kids not only what math is all about but why we do math. If people aren't interested then fine to each their own. But if they are interested but struggling then that is where someone skilled can step in correcting the mistakes and perceptions of that student.

Another thing I've found is that in general education is a thing whereby in most subjects students aren't actively engaged in learning, they are simply tested on how well they can memorize and slightly process what they are meant to know. I believe that people in general do not learn with a bunch of theorems shoved down their throat but learn through discovery.

Another thing with science is that there is the perception that one can't make sufficient amounts of money in that career. I would argue against this if the student had business acumen and learned to combine science with business and go where the money is. Many people have done this and come out very well in the end.

If we are to get more people into these areas we need to think about what the perceived incentives are. Money only goes so far. Recognition goes pretty far. People like recognition. People want to acknowledged and rewarded for doing something hard.

I think one thing with science and engineering is that people have to realize that they
can do more than just engineering or science after they complete that degree. You can tell people about MBA's advisory or consultant jobs, political jobs, development roles the list is endless. If students realized that degrees didn't confine their options then I think students would be more willing and open to undertaking these degrees. Thats just my opinion though.

 

[Sankaku]

I think you really over estimate the intelligence of humanity as a whole... (snip)

There are many people out there who have never really rubbed shoulders with the morons of society.

While I like to think of myself as an optimist, in my darker moments I have to agree with you. We still have to do our best to make sure non-science students leave school/university with a solid understanding of what science actually is. Our future depends on it. Without that understanding, people will continue to make incredibly destructive decisions - both at a personal and at a national level.

 

[avant-garde]

Not unless our system radically changes. Science is usually not short term profitable, in that gains are hard to measure and only happen over time. Modern economics demands quarterly bottom lines...so unless we have a systematic overhaul the big bucks probably won't go to the scientists in the room.

Yeah, but what about engineers/programmers who work in the corporate world?

 

[TMFKAN64]

Engineers in industry do well... but the "big bucks" are in management/marketing/sales. Which, to be honest, is probably where they should be. Companies need engineers to build a product. But it is *far* more important that they are able to sell this product for revenue.

Good marketing beats good engineering every single time.

 

[DukeofDuke]

Good marketing beats good engineering every single time.

At making money, yes, not at making better products.

 

[Tiger99]

Personally I think the only way this is going to change is to get skilled people in math (think uni professors and lecturers) to go to schools and teach kids not only what math is all about but why we do math. If people aren't interested then fine to each their own. But if they are interested but struggling then that is where someone skilled can step in correcting the mistakes and perceptions of that student.

You might be pleased to know that the CSIRO's launched a program to do just that: http://austmaths.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/mathematicians-in-schools/
Or maybe you already knew?

 

[Troponin]

My early years were a perfect storm for producing students that did not want to pursue math or science.
First is "no child left behind." I don't know what others take is on this, but in my experience it is more along the lines of "no child allowed to excel."
Classes are taught at the level of the average student...at the pace of the slowest students.

Add to that the fact that being smart is "lame."
It's "cool" to be good at sports. Being smart, especially in math and science is (in my experience) the exact opposite of cool.
It's not just the kids that perpetuate this. Even our math teachers would make jokes and innuendos about math being for "dorks."

It took me 29 years to finally "accept" math. I was so sure I hated it that I never let myself realize I love it.

Hell, even today, when my wife and I visit my parents and my Father asks me about "life," the second I mention Physics, Math, or studying, he says something along the lines of "I got to party with you!" or "That sounds like my kind of Saturday night. You must be a BLAST to hang out with."

I'd have to guess there are a lot of people my age out there who could/would have gone into math or science if some of the above things affected them a little bit different.

 

[bleedblue1234]

The problem with most students today is that most fields in most sciences (economics, physics, mathematics, biology, etc.) are so very specialized and require literally years and thousands and thousands of hours of effort to truly appreciate and do revolutionary work in the field.

I don't think there will be many Isaac Newtons or even Einsteins running around as we move well into the 21st century, just because even the smartest of minds can only accomplish so much, and much of what is quote "easy" to discover has been done so already.

Maybe with further advances in computer technology and a genetic engineering we can create far more intelligent humans, but as it stands right now to do truly revolutionary work in a field of science requires years of dedication for a cause most people see as fruitless or "whats the point?".

There are no more "renaissance" men... and with the death of many of the true "famous" scientists, so goes most peoples interest in science itself...

 

[Phyisab****]

Lack of attractive women.

 

[chiro]

You might be pleased to know that the CSIRO's launched a program to do just that: http://austmaths.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/mathematicians-in-schools/
Or maybe you already knew?

Hey there thanks for the heads up. Thats great news, a great initiative.

 

[TMFKAN64]

At making money, yes, not at making better products.

Well, of course. But we were talking about where the "big bucks" were... and unsurprisingly, they're with the people who bring in the money.

 

[Sankaku]

It's "cool" to be good at sports. Being smart, especially in math and science is (in my experience) the exact opposite of cool.

This is a significant problem. If you are lucky to go to an elite school, this kind of peer response is more rare, but for most of us it is a huge obstacle. I can only think that it is a defence reaction to feeling inadequate when someone you know is smarter than you (or works harder than you).

In schools, the teaching is only half the battle. The 'learning culture' is the other half. If kids are actively discouraged from learning by their peers, it almost doesn't matter what kind of excellent science teachers are in the schools. I am a firm believer in equal education for all, but stuff like this makes me realize why some parents send their kids to private schools.

It evens out by University to some degree, because students are paying for their own education (mostly) and have found their path by then (mostly). However, for many people the damage has already been done.

I think it isn't an issue of enough people going into the hard sciences. Rather it is an issue with non-scientists having a solid science background. If everyone who went through university had to have decent skills of rational scientific thought, we wouldn't see so many 'well educated' idiots making policy and business decisions that we all regret.

 

[Office_Shredder]

My early years were a perfect storm for producing students that did not want to pursue math or science.
First is "no child left behind." I don't know what others take is on this, but in my experience it is more along the lines of "no child allowed to excel."
Classes are taught at the level of the average student...at the pace of the slowest students

...

It took me 29 years to finally "accept" math. I was so sure I hated it that I never let myself realize I love it.

In all fairness, No Child Left Behind was passed way after you left your early years

 

[Troponin]

In all fairness, No Child Left Behind was passed way after you left your early years

Fair enough. I didn't really word it well anyway. My formative years were a perfect storm for "learning" that school was pointless.

The classes were still taught at the level of the average student at the pace of the slowest students. In a situation like that, it is very easy for the top students to lose interest unless they have someone to influence them against that.
Not that I was one of those top students...I wasn't.

I really just used the no child left behind so that I could say it should be called "no child allowed to excel."

Regardless, I come from a blue collar family in a blue collar town. My beliefs growing up were that sports were what was "important" about school. Math was lame, studying was for dorks, and you just had fun playing sports and partying until it was time to get a garbagety job and start a family.

I'm not blaming my upbringing for that, I just wish I had the maturity to realize how stupid that view is.

My high school Algebra teacher would make jokes about how we'd never need algebra in the "real world," but it shows colleges that you're willing to suffer through it anyway.

Like I said, my Father pokes fun at me for going back to school. If we're at a family gathering, as soon as the topic of me going back to school comes up...it turns into a mess of sarcastic comments like "you must be a RIOT to party with!"
Then I hear "what are you going to do with that math?"
"will you ever use that stuff"
"what so fun about adding numbers all day?"

I actually tried to tell my Mother that math isn't "really" about numbers...but she argued with me that I was wrong...I'm sure it's over-dramatized, but you read about Feynman's school years and you hear about his physics professor giving him an Advanced Calc book, or how his math teacher would give him and his buddy special problems to take home and try to work out. That would never have happened when I was in school. Hell, I think the physics professor would be punished for not making the student follow along with what he was supposed to be learning.
And if a kid were staying after hours with a teacher and becoming friendly...the teacher would be punished for giving that kid special treatment. I really don't want to sound like I'm whining about my school years. I loved school. I was captain of the football and baseball teams. I was a two time small college All-american in football. I had a great time in school. I just wish I let myself take a different view about education. As a kid I dreamed about being a scientist. I was certain I would be the first astronaut archaeologist who figured out how to travel faster than the speed of light. Unfortunately my experiences made it harder to maintain that view, and very easy to take the view I did. I sound like a major f'n cry baby...

 

[sportsstar469]

i know this may sound a bit...idk far fetched to some of you guys on this forum. but not everybody is a math/science expert, or has a passion to do any of that stuff. and yes not everyone wants to learn something hard because they are lazy. some people just can't do math no matter how much they try. i am a 19 year old college student..turning 20 in a week or two, and i am only i ncollege algebra/trig. we haven't even covered the trig yet, but i do not find the algebra portion easy like most of you guys here would. hell i struggle finding the range of a function from a formula.some people just arent good at math. would you guys rather have everyone puruse a science degree and have non competent individuals trying to perform scientific breakthroughs?

 

[Sankaku]

I agree that not everyone needs to go into the sciences.

some people just can't do math no matter how much they try.

I think there is a small minority of people who really have difficulty with math (like a math dyslexia). However, most people who think they are bad at math have just been robbed by their schooling at an earlier age. If you are having trouble with algebra at age 19, then there are 3 possibilities:

1) You really are bad at math: Unlikely, but possible.
2) You are a slow starter: In which case, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you could make up for lost time and do well.
3) You are just as capable at math as most of us, but have been confused by bad teaching and negative peer pressure (see troponin's post) and now feel out of your depth. Again, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you will catch up fine.

Option number 3 is very very common.

 

[symbolipoint]

Let me say something that will rile some nerves here: Students have better opportunity to learn Mathematics if they stay out of the common typical minimum Math courses in high school but attend only the college preparatory Math courses of Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, MathAnalysis/PreCalculus/Statistics/IntroCalculus. The material is more thorough and of better quality and motivation (what kind) is often clearer, and the material is taught often from teachers who have a deeper Mathematical background than from non-college prep. teachers.

I am NOT insisting that this is universally true. It is only a partly experienced impression.

 

[sportsstar469]

I agree that not everyone needs to go into the sciences.

I think there is a small minority of people who really have difficulty with math (like a math dyslexia). However, most people who think they are bad at math have just been robbed by their schooling at an earlier age. If you are having trouble with algebra at age 19, then there are 3 possibilities:

1) You really are bad at math: Unlikely, but possible.
2) You are a slow starter: In which case, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you could make up for lost time and do well.
3) You are just as capable at math as most of us, but have been confused by bad teaching and negative peer pressure (see troponin's post) and now feel out of your depth. Again, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you will catch up fine.

Option number 3 is very very common.

well if you don't mind id like to give you a little history on my math career(if youd like to call a 19-20 year olds school history that)
in 6th grade i was in the normal math class, apparently the teachers thought i was doing to well in that class and put me in the higher level math class. keep in mind there were kids who were place din the higher level math class FROM the beginning of the year based on 5th grade i guess. but never the less i was deemed ''smarter at math'' than my fellow average math classmates. at the end of 6th grade we took a math and english placement test. i placed into pre algebra for 7th grade which I am sure most of you know is the higher level math class. there's math and pre algebra. its here that my difficulties with math began. i got alike a 40-50 percent final grade in that class. i just couldn't keep up with the class's concepts. i then repeated pre algebra in 8th grade and passed it with a b?
i went onto algebra in 9th grade, and once agai nwas completely lost. i failed it. the counnselor decided to put me intop ''intermeidate'' algebra which is a class lower than algebra 1 for the start of my 10th grade year. i got kicked out of my high school during my tenth grade year. i won't go into that,but i got into a fight with a kid and that's wh y igot thrown out..theres more to the story but that is irrelevant. SO from my 10th grade to 12th grade i layed and rotted in alternative school. my mind was sitting with no stimulation.
i took intermeidate algebra agai nat alternative school, then cheated my way to an A in geometry..and never took any mroe math except for a ''checking'' class.
still got a high school diploma.
when i got to college itook the placement test and got like 99 on the english and reading part, s and like 90 on the arithmitic parts. i got a 40 on the algebra parts. i was palced i n an elementary algebra class which i aced. since i was behind i took an algebra 2/intro to right triangle trig course, in the 6 week summer session this past summer. i also got an A in that. now i am in college algebra /trig and i think there's some pre calc we go into at the end but I am not sure. I am not trying super hard, and i did get a 100 on the first quiz we had, but the last quiz we had i think i bombed(like a 70-80 if I am lucky). i haven't been doing the homework, but that's no excuse. algebra should come naturally to a college student. ALSO i got A'S in my other two math classes because iwould go for tutoring and extra teacher help EVERY DAY making sure to never fall behind. i had great math teachers so its not their fault. i also have a great math teacher this term, and i go to her for extra help after EVERY CLASS. i also go to the amth tutoring lab. however, if i don't understand a concept, it doesn't matter how many times the tutors explain it to me, as theyre talking nothing gets absorbed, and it just seeps through my head until every last ounce of substance saidd pusses outt he other side of my head.

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

 

[Klockan3]

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

So, what is the moral of the story? You didn't really make a point that fit the topic.

 

[sportsstar469]

So, what is the moral of the story? You didn't really make a point that fit the topic.

i was just explaining my background in math. it fit the topic just fine./

 

[Klockan3]

i was just explaining my background in math. it fit the topic just fine./

But the deal is that he weren't talking about you, he were talking about people in general. Anyway, it sounds like your problem is mostly that you don't personally care about maths, not that you can't do it.

 

[Sankaku]

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

So, you did well at math when young. You were put in a class that moved quickly but you then had difficulty. You fell behind and then got demotivated - bouncing around in marks depending on whether you got tested on something you knew or not. Now you are finding part of math easy and part hard. You can do well if coached by good teachers but still have holes in your understanding that will take work.

Seems like you prove my point exactly.

 

[sportsstar469]

But the deal is that he weren't talking about you, he were talking about people in general. Anyway, it sounds like your problem is mostly that you don't personally care about maths, not that you can't do it.

werent?
anyway he did mention me in his post. but all that aside i am curious what my deal is. and i thought maybe i could get some more insight on my math abilities by giving some information about myself. although I am sure no one can tell fro mthe internet but its worth a try i guess. also it explains why I am not interested in doing engineering or math teaching as my profession.

i think i might be a combo. i don't care but i also can't do it. it just seems like whenever i go to the tutor or the teachers(good teachers who are nice and explain things i na variety of ways) it just goers right through me and as theyre explaining it I am thinking oh man i didnt get that and they keep trying to make me explain it and I am finally like yeah i got it...and walk out as confused as i came in.

 

[symbolipoint]

sportsstar469 has expressed his particular case why some students do not pursue Engineering/Math/Science. In contrast to so many students who do poorly in Mathematics, sportsstar469 has REPEATED the typical sequence of Math courses, and ASKED for help eventually, when he needed help, and is currently learning the course topics.

sportsstar469 has also indicated some possibly poor counseling & placement problem as he reveals in his enrollments and troubles of beginning Algebra and "Intermediate Algebra" in high school. A student would commonly need to have understood most of Algebra 1 and maintain some knowledge as a requirement to successfully studying Intermediate Algebra; The "Intermediate" course of Algebra is more advanced and an extension from Algebra 1. His being placed into Intermediate Algebra without first passing Algebra 1 was a mistake. Other general problems like this might occur in other schools, although I have only been aware of a few things like this.

 

[sportsstar469]

sportsstar469 has expressed his particular case why some students do not pursue Engineering/Math/Science. In contrast to so many students who do poorly in Mathematics, sportsstar469 has REPEATED the typical sequence of Math courses, and ASKED for help eventually, when he needed help, and is currently learning the course topics.

sportsstar469 has also indicated some possibly poor counseling & placement problem as he reveals in his enrollments and troubles of beginning Algebra and "Intermediate Algebra" in high school. A student would commonly need to have understood most of Algebra 1 and maintain some knowledge as a requirement to successfully studying Intermediate Algebra; The "Intermediate" course of Algebra is more advanced and an extension from Algebra 1. His being placed into Intermediate Algebra without first passing Algebra 1 was a mistake. Other general problems like this might occur in other schools, although I have only been aware of a few things like this.

i would normally agree with you, that intermediate algebra is a higher level than algebra one since in college that is how it works. but in high school intermediate algebra was algebra 1 at a much slower pace. i never truly passed an algebra classs till i got to high school, so i was pretty pleased when i got an A in my first class, and then i got an A in my 6 week algebra 2/trig course. idk why but I've just not cared much about school this semester.

by the way youll be happy to know chemistry is going fine. those conversions are so easy to me now, it makes me laugh to think they were hard. i mean i went from not being able to do the conversions, to solving limiting reagent problems by using the conversions at the first step! so i have come some ways./ it still takes a minute or to to go from something like a teragram/gigaliters to pounds/gallons or something like that but I am pretty good at it now

 

[Phyisab****]

Well this thread has degenerated a little, take your personal story to another thread. But seriously, I don't think the answer to this question is that complicated. In my opinion it is some weighted combination of:

*warning this turned into a pretty angry rant by the end, sorry to be a downer but I guess part of me really feels this way*

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds. Elementary school science is also taught to the lowest common denominator, which is really damn low when your in elementary school. I knew more about science in elementary school than my teachers, so that wasn't exactly going to capture the interest of anyone who had talent.

2. If for some reason you make it to middle school while maintaining an interest in math/science, you still have 6 years of low quality schooling to wade through. If you decide you really really want to be a scientist, it really doesn't matter. All you can do is keep getting A's in classes that are way too simple and unrewarding. 6 years is a long long time when you are 12.

3. If you manage to graduate high school with good grades because it was really easy or because you actually believed grandpa or someone that it would make your life better someday, you're left with the decision of actually going to college for math/science. This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude. Then you consider that your roommate is a heavy drinking business major with a cocaine habit who still gets A's in all his classes because it's that easy. This guy is going to make more money than you and have a fun time doing it. While the math/science guy is going to have to dedicate himself in a way those other guys will never understand. Subsequently, you will be rewarded by realizing you can't get a good job with that physics BS that you gave your blood, sweat, and tears to earn. Now you need to take 5 more years to get a Ph. D., with of course all the obstacles that stand in the way of that. Hopefully you really do love math/science for their intrinsic beauty or you may be near suicidal at this point. This is when you look back on your life and all you can say is damn. There really is something to be said for taking the easy way out.

It really chaps my cheeks when I hear "our kids aren't pursuing math and science the sky is falling!" You know who else isn't pursuing math and science? All the poseurs who wrote that stupid story. Why don't you take up your end up the rope a**holes. Why aren't people pursuing math and science? Because its damn hard and it isn't at all obvious that your work will be reasonable rewarded. Now of course someone is going to say as they already have on this thread "of course you aren't entitled to anything just because you worked hard and got a physics degree." I'm not saying you are. But if you're worse off than the average business student, it's really a piss poor incentive for people to go into math and science.

 

[comp_math]

While people may say one got to do science for the love of it, wait till you are married and have kids, have a mortgage to pay, etc. Then it will seem like your science job isn't really paying much. Also, you spend all your time doing science, and having not much time with your family or other things.

And by the way, just let your kids do what they are interested in, whether it is business or science, or whatever.

 

[avant-garde]

Hmmm... most of these arguments seem to be focused on science/physics, but how effectively does it describe CS/engineering?

 

[Sankaku]

This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude.

So true. So true. (I liked your rant)

 

[Topher925]

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds.

I would also like to add to this what kids, and by kids I mean me when I was a kid, are taught success to be. When in HS it was drilled into our minds that success was a high class job like a CEO at a big company, a fast car, a big boat, and a trophy wife with boobs the size of Australia. Bottom line, you are nothing unless you have status and money. Therefor, the majority of my classmates went on to pursue degrees in finance, business, law, or medicine in order to make money and be "successful".

I honestly think that society is starting to turn it around though. I'm now seeing a lot more science fairs and things like FIRST robotics that I used to. Plus when you have the president saying that the country needs more scientists and engineers since the financial system is retarded and our manufacturing base is gone, it at least gives you a little bit of hope.

 

[Troponin]

Well this thread has degenerated a little, take your personal story to another thread. But seriously, I don't think the answer to this question is that complicated. In my opinion it is some weighted combination of:

*warning this turned into a pretty angry rant by the end, sorry to be a downer but I guess part of me really feels this way*

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds. Elementary school science is also taught to the lowest common denominator, which is really damn low when your in elementary school. I knew more about science in elementary school than my teachers, so that wasn't exactly going to capture the interest of anyone who had talent.

2. If for some reason you make it to middle school while maintaining an interest in math/science, you still have 6 years of low quality schooling to wade through. If you decide you really really want to be a scientist, it really doesn't matter. All you can do is keep getting A's in classes that are way too simple and unrewarding. 6 years is a long long time when you are 12.

3. If you manage to graduate high school with good grades because it was really easy or because you actually believed grandpa or someone that it would make your life better someday, you're left with the decision of actually going to college for math/science. This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude. Then you consider that your roommate is a heavy drinking business major with a cocaine habit who still gets A's in all his classes because it's that easy. This guy is going to make more money than you and have a fun time doing it. While the math/science guy is going to have to dedicate himself in a way those other guys will never understand. Subsequently, you will be rewarded by realizing you can't get a good job with that physics BS that you gave your blood, sweat, and tears to earn. Now you need to take 5 more years to get a Ph. D., with of course all the obstacles that stand in the way of that. Hopefully you really do love math/science for their intrinsic beauty or you may be near suicidal at this point. This is when you look back on your life and all you can say is damn. There really is something to be said for taking the easy way out.

It really chaps my cheeks when I hear "our kids aren't pursuing math and science the sky is falling!" You know who else isn't pursuing math and science? All the poseurs who wrote that stupid story. Why don't you take up your end up the rope a**holes. Why aren't people pursuing math and science? Because its damn hard and it isn't at all obvious that your work will be reasonable rewarded. Now of course someone is going to say as they already have on this thread "of course you aren't entitled to anything just because you worked hard and got a physics degree." I'm not saying you are. But if you're worse off than the average business student, it's really a piss poor incentive for people to go into math and science.

Okay, this is exactly what I 'wanted' to say, only explained much, much better. I agree 100%, and am actually a little jealous that the point is made so much better than mine. lol

 

[sportsstar469]

i still feel the notion that everybody can do math is very ignorant. you guys are science/math people, and you guys don't realize how much people struggle with math. I am not buying that my problem is i don't care, or that i can do it with good teachers. i have a good teacher now and i don't know the stuff really. i also do not absorb anything she or the tutors say when igo for extra help. il ladmit this semester i haven't done the homewerks, but i have been to class everyday for extra help, and have gone for tutoring every day so it equals out...

but yeah like isaid some people just can't learn it even when its explained to them over and over a thousand times. and for all you people on here who are good at math and are telling others they don't work hard...shame on you./

although i am not trying as hard as i can i will admit that! i also get no benefit when going for the tutoring sessions./

 

[MissSilvy]

i still feel the notion that everybody can do math is very ignorant. you guys are science/math people

Everyone CAN do math, if you're of normal intelligence or above. What most people lack is the background and desire to do so. I'm afraid that most people I know are nose-to-the-bark on a particular tree instead of looking at the forest, if you understand my meaning.

The excuses 'I'm not a math person/I wasn't nurtured when I was young/I don't have the neural connections necessary to do math' to be very stupid. You're essentially blaming your shortcomings on something that's a fraction of the entire experience. It's like saying how you twisted your leg that one time during peewee baseball and that's why you never made it to the big leagues. There's far, far more to it than that and the reason most people seek refuge in these inane excuses is that they take the pressure off of you; after all, how could you HELP that your parents didn't make you do calculus before you were 10 or that your brain isn't two times as fast as a normal persons? Your failure at math simply MUST be due to things beyond your control. Or is it?

 

[Sankaku]

you guys don't realize how much people struggle with math.

No, you don't realize that we (who you think are 'good at math') have to work just as hard, worry that we are not brilliant, and get confused just like everyone else. There are very few people who are genius level in math. All the rest of us just work hard because we desperately WANT to understand. Don't worry about comparing yourself to other people.

If you have some foundational part of math missing from earlier in your schooling, it will make large parts of the subject hard to grasp. Once you have filled in the missing puzzle pieces, everything else will make sense (with normal hard work).

Otherwise, you are just handicapped and should give up now. I will let you make that decision.

 

[sportsstar469]

No, you don't realize that we (who you think are 'good at math') have to work just as hard, worry that we are not brilliant, and get confused just like everyone else. There are very few people who are genius level in math. All the rest of us just work hard because we desperately WANT to understand. Don't worry about comparing yourself to other people.

If you have some foundational part of math missing from earlier in your schooling, it will make large parts of the subject hard to grasp. Once you have filled in the missing puzzle pieces, everything else will make sense (with normal hard work).

Otherwise, you are just handicapped and should give up now. I will let you make that decision.

sure everyone can do some sort of math, but not everyone can do high level math and that's fact. and no you don't get AS confused as others. I've spoken to people who are in calculus 3 classes which is probably much lower than most people here who are on the road to physics. they say calc 1 was easy, and calc 2 they started struggling. these people got c pluses in calc 2 so they're not really math wizards. my school has remedial classes which start at fractions and whole numbers lol. not everyone has the ability to do math. i still HATE fractions and decimals. I've been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower. id like to switch to psychology but i assume you need a lot of math to get a phd inpsych? i know you need at least stats.

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

 

[Sankaku]

ive been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower.

With your attitude toward learning, I hope you never become a school teacher.

"Sorry little Jimmy, you just suck at math and there is nothing you can do about it!"

You would be all kinds of inspiration. In fact, you would be propagating exactly the kind of unfairness that made you hate math in the first place.

If pointing that out makes me an ***, then so be it.

 

[avant-garde]

Basically, if you can READ any text and comprehend those ideas, then you can do MATH. Math and reading are symbolic in nature.

 

[MissSilvy]

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

While I agree, the statement may have been a bit unnecessarily harsh, sitting here and whining instead of trying to remedy your situation makes you seem a bit silly. And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

 

[Klockan3]

Everyone CAN do math, if you're of normal intelligence or above.

While I agree that sportsstar469 is a bit overly negative I don't agree with this. It is very easy to overestimate what "normal" intelligence is since most of your friends and such comes from the upper tiers since similar attracts.

Think like this, only ~15% of graduating HS students even take the first calculus class so those are certainly not a good representation of normal, you will have to go back to middle school and look at those. And yes, there most do struggle with simple things like fundamental algebra. There are just like 5 rules they need to learn, it can't be that hard right?

The problem is that if you have a bit of talent for maths then you will not see the problem those face. You will just see it like this since you don't notice the difference between doing maths and following a recipe from a cookbook:

Basically, if you can READ any text and comprehend those ideas, then you can do MATH. Math and reading are symbolic in nature.

Edit:

And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

If you read the story you would see that this isn't the case, this is coming after a lot of trying.

Edit edit: And yes, while maths is hard for everyone it starts to get hard at different stages and that is certainly not something that only comes from psychological effects. Also even for the talented it is usually harder than other subjects anyway, the easy way out is always tempting. With this I want to say that there certainly are people who don't do any maths who are really smart, and most who study some kind of maths later do underestimate their place on the intellectual gauss curve. You really do feel like an idiot when you study something you have no clue about. And since you never study something you understand in maths you will feel like an idiot constantly.

 

[clope023]

sure everyone can do some sort of math, but not everyone can do high level math and that's fact. and no you don't get AS confused as others. I've spoken to people who are in calculus 3 classes which is probably much lower than most people here who are on the road to physics. they say calc 1 was easy, and calc 2 they started struggling. these people got c pluses in calc 2 so they're not really math wizards. my school has remedial classes which start at fractions and whole numbers lol. not everyone has the ability to do math. i still HATE fractions and decimals. I've been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower. id like to switch to psychology but i assume you need a lot of math to get a phd inpsych? i know you need at least stats.

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

calc 3 sounds hard but it really was the easiest of the calcs, calc 1 was hardest followed by calc 2 for btw I started college in remedial algebra; physics undergrad majors take calc1-3 followed by differential equations, partial differentials and linear algebra and perhaps 1 or 2 more maths not much more than engineering undergrads (physicists know math better though, god forbid an ee in my school is without his TI-89 ugh)

if I had stuck to what I had inate ability with I would've been an art major (and yes inate ability does exist, normally the people who say it doesn't actually have it but are somehow offended at the fact that they're being told that its their talent and not their hard that is the reason for their success, its a little bit of both); I eventually found math/physics quite beautiful even though I was struggling with it so I stuck with it

so yes genetics has a say in everything that you do but anyone ANYONE can make progress and yes understand math you just have to put in the hours, my friends who are math majors work their assess off for hours in the library everyday for their classes, they sometimes don't go home and sleep over in the math department so they can get up just study more right away for their exams, it takes that kind of dedication in some instances the subject can be that hard but its not impossible

 

[arunma]

Finally this thread got moved to a more appropriate forum.

I haven't read through all the posts, so forgive me if this has already been stated. I noticed in the OP that Friedman points out that the percentage of scientists who are American is what is decreasing. Those of us who are Americans and physics grad students can probably attest to the following fact: we are essentially minorities in our own departments. Maybe I'm flat out wrong, but I wonder if part of the problem regarding the lack of American scientists is that Americans are now finding it difficult to get into our own graduate schools, because we are competing with applicants from overseas. Unlike Americans, students in China and, to a lesser extent, India are trained to do physics problems (which isn't the same thing as studying physics), and prepare much longer for the GRE than we do. That's why most of us have pGRE scores in the 40th to 50th %-ile, whereas our fellow grad students from overseas are scoring in the 90s. Of course I'm all for letting people into grad school on the basis of merit, but something has gone terribly wrong when American taxpayers are footing the bill to educate so many students from other countries while denying that education to our own citizens.

At this point you all probably think I'm some Southern racist guy who wants to close off our borders. I assure you that I take no issue with immigration from other countries. In fact, in principle I don't even have problem with immigration for the purpose of going to grad school here. In fact, both of my parents emigrated here from India so that my dad could go to grad school, so I recognize that there is some value in bringing foreign students to study here. But I think that we're going overboard when 8 students out of a first year physics graduate class of 15 are non-Americans (this is the typical ratio in my department, and I've heard that other departments are the same). It should be no surprise that America isn't producing American scientists; we're too busy producing scientists for other nations! If we want more Americans to go into the physical sciences, then why not require that public schools admit a larger percentage of Americans?

I'd like to consider a toy model here. In your typical physics graduate program, you get around 200 applications a year, and admit something like 30 students. Assuming the citizen to non-citizen ratios of admitted and matriculating students are the same, this means that only 15 of the admitted students are Americans. I have trouble believing that the next 10 or so Americans on the list of applicants are so woefully underqualified as to not merit admission into the graduate program. Instead of admitting 15 foreign students, why not admit an additional 10 to 12 Americans, and only 3-5 non-Americans? This would be an excellent way of producing more American scientists, while using the American tax dollars that go to the department for their intended purpose.

Anyway, there's my take on this, based on my experiences in grad school. Hopefully no one will yell at me.

 

[MissSilvy]

and yes inate ability does exist, normally the people who say it doesn't actually have it but are somehow offended at the fact that they're being told that its their talent and not their hard that is the reason for their success, its a little bit of both

I hope to god you're not a science major, because that was the most unjustified and smarmy-sounding hypothesis-posed-as-fact that I have EVER seen. Good to know you've cited studies or at least provided some support for your outrageous claim. Oh wait, you declared it to be true despite any dissenting opinion? Bugger.

 

[sportsstar469]

While I agree that sportsstar469 is a bit overly negative I don't agree with this. It is very easy to overestimate what "normal" intelligence is since most of your friends and such comes from the upper tiers since similar attracts.

Think like this, only ~15% of graduating HS students even take the first calculus class so those are certainly not a good representation of normal, you will have to go back to middle school and look at those. And yes, there most do struggle with simple things like fundamental algebra. There are just like 5 rules they need to learn, it can't be that hard right?

The problem is that if you have a bit of talent for maths then you will not see the problem those face. You will just see it like this since you don't notice the difference between doing maths and following a recipe from a cookbook:Edit:

If you read the story you would see that this isn't the case, this is coming after a lot of trying.

Edit edit: And yes, while maths is hard for everyone it starts to get hard at different stages and that is certainly not something that only comes from psychological effects. Also even for the talented it is usually harder than other subjects anyway, the easy way out is always tempting. With this I want to say that there certainly are people who don't do any maths who are really smart, and most who study some kind of maths later do underestimate their place on the intellectual gauss curve. You really do feel like an idiot when you study something you have no clue about. And since you never study something you understand in maths you will feel like an idiot constantly.

EXACTLY! math gets hard for people at different stages. like i said my friend was able to do calc 1 and with ease, then struggled in calc 2 and got a c. now he sin calc 3 and says he's confused but calc 2 and 3 are hard but not super hard just that he's struggling. to compare a guy like me who isn't strong in algebra to someone like that, and to say that i could do that is just stupid. everyone here neds to get off their high horse.
i know having a negative attitude is bad but klockan is right missy you need to read my story. i actually feel bad for some people in my school. i think i have the ability if i put more work into this course to MAYBE get an a in it, and then get a b in precalc MAYBE. however there's a math major in my class who got a 40 on his first quiz and a 40 on his second quiz, and i see him study way more than i do. my quiz averages so far are a 100 on the first quiz, and a 73 on this quiz we just had. i think if i prepared more i might have gotten a 90 but i might not have. what matters is that i ace my test on Monday and get at least an 80 on Wednesdays quiz. although I am not really trying my hardest./ it just gets frustrating when i do try and the tutors don't make sense to me.

calc 3 sounds hard but it really was the easiest of the calcs, calc 1 was hardest followed by calc 2 for btw I started college in remedial algebra; physics undergrad majors take calc1-3 followed by differential equations, partial differentials and linear algebra and perhaps 1 or 2 more maths not much more than engineering undergrads (physicists know math better though, god forbid an ee in my school is without his TI-89 ugh)

if I had stuck to what I had inate ability with I would've been an art major (and yes inate ability does exist, normally the people who say it doesn't actually have it but are somehow offended at the fact that they're being told that its their talent and not their hard that is the reason for their success, its a little bit of both); I eventually found math/physics quite beautiful even though I was struggling with it so I stuck with it

so yes genetics has a say in everything that you do but anyone ANYONE can make progress and yes understand math you just have to put in the hours, my friends who are math majors work their assess off for hours in the library everyday for their classes, they sometimes don't go home and sleep over in the math department so they can get up just study more right away for their exams, it takes that kind of dedication in some instances the subject can be that hard but its not impossible

well the person i talked to said calc 3 is harder for him because its totally different than calc 1 and 2, and because its multivariable and he doesn't know how to solve for areas and stuff..idk. but yeah that's pretty cool you started college in remedial algebra and got up as high as you did! are you sure you're not naturally good at math but just didn't have proper high school teachers? I am sure there's some aptitude there to get up to the maths./

 

[avant-garde]

And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

Wait... didn't you make a thread about this in some other subforum?
I think it was "'Major in what you passionate in!' and other useless platitudes..."

 

[MissSilvy]

Wait... didn't you make a thread about this in some other subforum?
I think it was "'Major in what you passionate in!' and other useless platitudes..."

My thread was referencing the trite and useless statements that people often utter to those deciding on majors. I didn't say "Waaah, math is hard so it's not my fault I suck at it!". Difference, see? :)

 

[clope023]

EXACTLY! math gets hard for people at different stages. like i said my friend was able to do calc 1 and with ease, then struggled in calc 2 and got a c. now he sin calc 3 and says he's confused but calc 2 and 3 are hard but not super hard just that he's struggling. to compare a guy like me who isn't strong in algebra to someone like that, and to say that i could do that is just stupid. everyone here neds to get off their high horse.
i know having a negative attitude is bad but klockan is right missy you need to read my story. i actually feel bad for some people in my school. i think i have the ability if i put more work into this course to MAYBE get an a in it, and then get a b in precalc MAYBE. however there's a math major in my class who got a 40 on his first quiz and a 40 on his second quiz, and i see him study way more than i do. my quiz averages so far are a 100 on the first quiz, and a 73 on this quiz we just had. i think if i prepared more i might have gotten a 90 but i might not have. what matters is that i ace my test on Monday and get at least an 80 on Wednesdays quiz. although I am not really trying my hardest./ it just gets frustrating when i do try and the tutors don't make sense to me.

well the person i talked to said calc 3 is harder for him because its totally different than calc 1 and 2, and because its multivariable and he doesn't know how to solve for areas and stuff..idk. but yeah that's pretty cool you started college in remedial algebra and got up as high as you did! are you sure you're not naturally good at math but just didn't have proper high school teachers? I am sure there's some aptitude there to get up to the maths./

hell no I'm not naturally good at math, again I do believe there are people out there that are but I'm not one of them; my high school teachers were fine I was just lazy with regards to math and school in general up to high school and early college; calc 3 isn't even that high of a math, yeah for non-science/engineering majors that sounds hard but really in engineering and physics that stuff is just standard material everyone has to know so I guess for me it doesn't seem that hard anymore, you have to actually like if you're going to grind through it though, plenty of engineers in my school end up business or management types cause they get fed up with having to do all the hard calculations, I actually like it when my teachers bust out some pure math now, lol; maybe your tutors just suck, not everyone who understands math has the ability to put it into plain english

 

[sportsstar469]

hell no I'm not naturally good at math, again I do believe there are people out there that are but I'm not one of them; my high school teachers were fine I was just lazy with regards to math and school in general up to high school and early college; calc 3 isn't even that high of a math, yeah for non-science/engineering majors that sounds hard but really in engineering and physics that stuff is just standard material everyone has to know so I guess for me it doesn't seem that hard anymore, you have to actually like if you're going to grind through it though, plenty of engineers in my school end up business or management types cause they get fed up with having to do all the hard calculations, I actually like it when my teachers bust out some pure math now, lol; maybe your tutors just suck, not everyone who understands math has the ability to put it into plain english

well yeah i know that calc 3 isn't too high for physics, but physics and math majors are geniuses...
i still consider even calculus to be a pretty high level of math.

but anyway back to the question of if you are really good at math or not. i notice you said yooure not good at math, however you said the reason was you were lazy in high school and early colleger. i think you might be good at math but are just confusing being lazy and being bad at math. 2was remedieal algebra and beyond, really easy ONCE you applied yourself?

i mean I am not doing the worst in the class, thers a amth major in my class who got a 40 on the first and the second quiz. actually, i usually am in the top percentile of my classes. although i don't care anymore. i am just lazy too. like i have a math quiz tomorrow and a math test on monday and i haven't even studied once.

i mean i don't understand if I am bad at math or not. i got a 100 on my first quiz without studying too hard, and a 73 on my second quiz with like 10 minutes of studying(so could ahve maybe been a 90 if i worked hard), and i was palced i nall the high math classes from 6yh-7th ggrade...although i failed them lol.

so those are pros. however the cons are that when a tutor or teacher explains something THAT I DONT KNOW i don't comprehend it.

and nah, the math tutors at m yschool are pretty good, its just me. i go to the same gu yall the time, because i found him the ''easiest'' to understand. i also go to my teacher, but they both don't make much sense to me. my adjunct in the summer class was great though!

btw i don't know who on this forum said that calc 3 was the easiest calc, but i told my friend in bio what you said, and he's like yeah right HAHA. he thinks he failed or got a D on his test today.

 

[Klockan3]

hell no I'm not naturally good at math, again I do believe there are people out there that are but I'm not one of them; my high school teachers were fine I was just lazy with regards to math and school in general up to high school and early college;

If you were lazy and still managed to get through high school and early college maths then you are better off than ~80-90% of the population depending on which courses you are talking about and how you define lazy.

btw i don't know who on this forum said that calc 3 was the easiest calc, but i told my friend in bio what you said, and he's like yeah right HAHA. he thinks he failed or got a D on his test today.

It is the easiest calc if you have good intuition of 3d spaces.

 

[DukeofDuke]

well yeah i know that calc 3 isn't too high for physics, but physics and math majors are geniuses...
i still consider even calculus to be a pretty high level of math.

Nah man, Calculus is mainly just new forms of computation. That's hardly math. If your textbook doesn't have more than a total of 10 proofs, its certainly not mathematics (and calculus books mainly have definitions that you merely execute).

Don't get me wrong, computation courses can be hard. But I think one major reason why so many people shy away from "math" is because they've been taught computation their whole lives, so they don't know how interesting mathematics can actually be.

And a smart kid once told me that people usually throw around the term "genius" so they don't have to admit the other person is just normal- that the other person is actually in our league, and they had to work for their knowledge. We say they are a "genius" so we never have to compete with them, so we can acknowledge and dismiss their success without engaging our sense of competition, so we can avoid having to compare to them. But its not because they are actually geniuses. I am a physics math double major at a pretty rigorous school, and I am not sure if I know a single genius.