On the issue of kids not pursuing engineering/science/math these days

[chiro]

You might be pleased to know that the CSIRO's launched a program to do just that: http://austmaths.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/mathematicians-in-schools/
Or maybe you already knew?

Hey there thanks for the heads up. Thats great news, a great initiative.

 

[TMFKAN64]

At making money, yes, not at making better products.

Well, of course. But we were talking about where the "big bucks" were... and unsurprisingly, they're with the people who bring in the money.

 

[Sankaku]

It's "cool" to be good at sports. Being smart, especially in math and science is (in my experience) the exact opposite of cool.

This is a significant problem. If you are lucky to go to an elite school, this kind of peer response is more rare, but for most of us it is a huge obstacle. I can only think that it is a defence reaction to feeling inadequate when someone you know is smarter than you (or works harder than you).

In schools, the teaching is only half the battle. The 'learning culture' is the other half. If kids are actively discouraged from learning by their peers, it almost doesn't matter what kind of excellent science teachers are in the schools. I am a firm believer in equal education for all, but stuff like this makes me realize why some parents send their kids to private schools.

It evens out by University to some degree, because students are paying for their own education (mostly) and have found their path by then (mostly). However, for many people the damage has already been done.

I think it isn't an issue of enough people going into the hard sciences. Rather it is an issue with non-scientists having a solid science background. If everyone who went through university had to have decent skills of rational scientific thought, we wouldn't see so many 'well educated' idiots making policy and business decisions that we all regret.

 

[Office_Shredder]

My early years were a perfect storm for producing students that did not want to pursue math or science.
First is "no child left behind." I don't know what others take is on this, but in my experience it is more along the lines of "no child allowed to excel."
Classes are taught at the level of the average student...at the pace of the slowest students

...

It took me 29 years to finally "accept" math. I was so sure I hated it that I never let myself realize I love it.

In all fairness, No Child Left Behind was passed way after you left your early years

 

[Troponin]

In all fairness, No Child Left Behind was passed way after you left your early years

Fair enough. I didn't really word it well anyway. My formative years were a perfect storm for "learning" that school was pointless.

The classes were still taught at the level of the average student at the pace of the slowest students. In a situation like that, it is very easy for the top students to lose interest unless they have someone to influence them against that.
Not that I was one of those top students...I wasn't.

I really just used the no child left behind so that I could say it should be called "no child allowed to excel."

Regardless, I come from a blue collar family in a blue collar town. My beliefs growing up were that sports were what was "important" about school. Math was lame, studying was for dorks, and you just had fun playing sports and partying until it was time to get a garbagety job and start a family.

I'm not blaming my upbringing for that, I just wish I had the maturity to realize how stupid that view is.

My high school Algebra teacher would make jokes about how we'd never need algebra in the "real world," but it shows colleges that you're willing to suffer through it anyway.

Like I said, my Father pokes fun at me for going back to school. If we're at a family gathering, as soon as the topic of me going back to school comes up...it turns into a mess of sarcastic comments like "you must be a RIOT to party with!"
Then I hear "what are you going to do with that math?"
"will you ever use that stuff"
"what so fun about adding numbers all day?"

I actually tried to tell my Mother that math isn't "really" about numbers...but she argued with me that I was wrong...I'm sure it's over-dramatized, but you read about Feynman's school years and you hear about his physics professor giving him an Advanced Calc book, or how his math teacher would give him and his buddy special problems to take home and try to work out. That would never have happened when I was in school. Hell, I think the physics professor would be punished for not making the student follow along with what he was supposed to be learning.
And if a kid were staying after hours with a teacher and becoming friendly...the teacher would be punished for giving that kid special treatment. I really don't want to sound like I'm whining about my school years. I loved school. I was captain of the football and baseball teams. I was a two time small college All-american in football. I had a great time in school. I just wish I let myself take a different view about education. As a kid I dreamed about being a scientist. I was certain I would be the first astronaut archaeologist who figured out how to travel faster than the speed of light. Unfortunately my experiences made it harder to maintain that view, and very easy to take the view I did. I sound like a major f'n cry baby...

 

[sportsstar469]

i know this may sound a bit...idk far fetched to some of you guys on this forum. but not everybody is a math/science expert, or has a passion to do any of that stuff. and yes not everyone wants to learn something hard because they are lazy. some people just can't do math no matter how much they try. i am a 19 year old college student..turning 20 in a week or two, and i am only i ncollege algebra/trig. we haven't even covered the trig yet, but i do not find the algebra portion easy like most of you guys here would. hell i struggle finding the range of a function from a formula.some people just arent good at math. would you guys rather have everyone puruse a science degree and have non competent individuals trying to perform scientific breakthroughs?

 

[Sankaku]

I agree that not everyone needs to go into the sciences.

some people just can't do math no matter how much they try.

I think there is a small minority of people who really have difficulty with math (like a math dyslexia). However, most people who think they are bad at math have just been robbed by their schooling at an earlier age. If you are having trouble with algebra at age 19, then there are 3 possibilities:

1) You really are bad at math: Unlikely, but possible.
2) You are a slow starter: In which case, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you could make up for lost time and do well.
3) You are just as capable at math as most of us, but have been confused by bad teaching and negative peer pressure (see troponin's post) and now feel out of your depth. Again, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you will catch up fine.

Option number 3 is very very common.

 

[symbolipoint]

Let me say something that will rile some nerves here: Students have better opportunity to learn Mathematics if they stay out of the common typical minimum Math courses in high school but attend only the college preparatory Math courses of Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, MathAnalysis/PreCalculus/Statistics/IntroCalculus. The material is more thorough and of better quality and motivation (what kind) is often clearer, and the material is taught often from teachers who have a deeper Mathematical background than from non-college prep. teachers.

I am NOT insisting that this is universally true. It is only a partly experienced impression.

 

[sportsstar469]

I agree that not everyone needs to go into the sciences.

I think there is a small minority of people who really have difficulty with math (like a math dyslexia). However, most people who think they are bad at math have just been robbed by their schooling at an earlier age. If you are having trouble with algebra at age 19, then there are 3 possibilities:

1) You really are bad at math: Unlikely, but possible.
2) You are a slow starter: In which case, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you could make up for lost time and do well.
3) You are just as capable at math as most of us, but have been confused by bad teaching and negative peer pressure (see troponin's post) and now feel out of your depth. Again, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you will catch up fine.

Option number 3 is very very common.

well if you don't mind id like to give you a little history on my math career(if youd like to call a 19-20 year olds school history that)
in 6th grade i was in the normal math class, apparently the teachers thought i was doing to well in that class and put me in the higher level math class. keep in mind there were kids who were place din the higher level math class FROM the beginning of the year based on 5th grade i guess. but never the less i was deemed ''smarter at math'' than my fellow average math classmates. at the end of 6th grade we took a math and english placement test. i placed into pre algebra for 7th grade which I am sure most of you know is the higher level math class. there's math and pre algebra. its here that my difficulties with math began. i got alike a 40-50 percent final grade in that class. i just couldn't keep up with the class's concepts. i then repeated pre algebra in 8th grade and passed it with a b?
i went onto algebra in 9th grade, and once agai nwas completely lost. i failed it. the counnselor decided to put me intop ''intermeidate'' algebra which is a class lower than algebra 1 for the start of my 10th grade year. i got kicked out of my high school during my tenth grade year. i won't go into that,but i got into a fight with a kid and that's wh y igot thrown out..theres more to the story but that is irrelevant. SO from my 10th grade to 12th grade i layed and rotted in alternative school. my mind was sitting with no stimulation.
i took intermeidate algebra agai nat alternative school, then cheated my way to an A in geometry..and never took any mroe math except for a ''checking'' class.
still got a high school diploma.
when i got to college itook the placement test and got like 99 on the english and reading part, s and like 90 on the arithmitic parts. i got a 40 on the algebra parts. i was palced i n an elementary algebra class which i aced. since i was behind i took an algebra 2/intro to right triangle trig course, in the 6 week summer session this past summer. i also got an A in that. now i am in college algebra /trig and i think there's some pre calc we go into at the end but I am not sure. I am not trying super hard, and i did get a 100 on the first quiz we had, but the last quiz we had i think i bombed(like a 70-80 if I am lucky). i haven't been doing the homework, but that's no excuse. algebra should come naturally to a college student. ALSO i got A'S in my other two math classes because iwould go for tutoring and extra teacher help EVERY DAY making sure to never fall behind. i had great math teachers so its not their fault. i also have a great math teacher this term, and i go to her for extra help after EVERY CLASS. i also go to the amth tutoring lab. however, if i don't understand a concept, it doesn't matter how many times the tutors explain it to me, as theyre talking nothing gets absorbed, and it just seeps through my head until every last ounce of substance saidd pusses outt he other side of my head.

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

 

[Klockan3]

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

So, what is the moral of the story? You didn't really make a point that fit the topic.

 

[sportsstar469]

So, what is the moral of the story? You didn't really make a point that fit the topic.

i was just explaining my background in math. it fit the topic just fine./

 

[Klockan3]

i was just explaining my background in math. it fit the topic just fine./

But the deal is that he weren't talking about you, he were talking about people in general. Anyway, it sounds like your problem is mostly that you don't personally care about maths, not that you can't do it.

 

[Sankaku]

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

So, you did well at math when young. You were put in a class that moved quickly but you then had difficulty. You fell behind and then got demotivated - bouncing around in marks depending on whether you got tested on something you knew or not. Now you are finding part of math easy and part hard. You can do well if coached by good teachers but still have holes in your understanding that will take work.

Seems like you prove my point exactly.

 

[sportsstar469]

But the deal is that he weren't talking about you, he were talking about people in general. Anyway, it sounds like your problem is mostly that you don't personally care about maths, not that you can't do it.

werent?
anyway he did mention me in his post. but all that aside i am curious what my deal is. and i thought maybe i could get some more insight on my math abilities by giving some information about myself. although I am sure no one can tell fro mthe internet but its worth a try i guess. also it explains why I am not interested in doing engineering or math teaching as my profession.

i think i might be a combo. i don't care but i also can't do it. it just seems like whenever i go to the tutor or the teachers(good teachers who are nice and explain things i na variety of ways) it just goers right through me and as theyre explaining it I am thinking oh man i didnt get that and they keep trying to make me explain it and I am finally like yeah i got it...and walk out as confused as i came in.

 

[symbolipoint]

sportsstar469 has expressed his particular case why some students do not pursue Engineering/Math/Science. In contrast to so many students who do poorly in Mathematics, sportsstar469 has REPEATED the typical sequence of Math courses, and ASKED for help eventually, when he needed help, and is currently learning the course topics.

sportsstar469 has also indicated some possibly poor counseling & placement problem as he reveals in his enrollments and troubles of beginning Algebra and "Intermediate Algebra" in high school. A student would commonly need to have understood most of Algebra 1 and maintain some knowledge as a requirement to successfully studying Intermediate Algebra; The "Intermediate" course of Algebra is more advanced and an extension from Algebra 1. His being placed into Intermediate Algebra without first passing Algebra 1 was a mistake. Other general problems like this might occur in other schools, although I have only been aware of a few things like this.

 

[sportsstar469]

sportsstar469 has expressed his particular case why some students do not pursue Engineering/Math/Science. In contrast to so many students who do poorly in Mathematics, sportsstar469 has REPEATED the typical sequence of Math courses, and ASKED for help eventually, when he needed help, and is currently learning the course topics.

sportsstar469 has also indicated some possibly poor counseling & placement problem as he reveals in his enrollments and troubles of beginning Algebra and "Intermediate Algebra" in high school. A student would commonly need to have understood most of Algebra 1 and maintain some knowledge as a requirement to successfully studying Intermediate Algebra; The "Intermediate" course of Algebra is more advanced and an extension from Algebra 1. His being placed into Intermediate Algebra without first passing Algebra 1 was a mistake. Other general problems like this might occur in other schools, although I have only been aware of a few things like this.

i would normally agree with you, that intermediate algebra is a higher level than algebra one since in college that is how it works. but in high school intermediate algebra was algebra 1 at a much slower pace. i never truly passed an algebra classs till i got to high school, so i was pretty pleased when i got an A in my first class, and then i got an A in my 6 week algebra 2/trig course. idk why but I've just not cared much about school this semester.

by the way youll be happy to know chemistry is going fine. those conversions are so easy to me now, it makes me laugh to think they were hard. i mean i went from not being able to do the conversions, to solving limiting reagent problems by using the conversions at the first step! so i have come some ways./ it still takes a minute or to to go from something like a teragram/gigaliters to pounds/gallons or something like that but I am pretty good at it now

 

[Phyisab****]

Well this thread has degenerated a little, take your personal story to another thread. But seriously, I don't think the answer to this question is that complicated. In my opinion it is some weighted combination of:

*warning this turned into a pretty angry rant by the end, sorry to be a downer but I guess part of me really feels this way*

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds. Elementary school science is also taught to the lowest common denominator, which is really damn low when your in elementary school. I knew more about science in elementary school than my teachers, so that wasn't exactly going to capture the interest of anyone who had talent.

2. If for some reason you make it to middle school while maintaining an interest in math/science, you still have 6 years of low quality schooling to wade through. If you decide you really really want to be a scientist, it really doesn't matter. All you can do is keep getting A's in classes that are way too simple and unrewarding. 6 years is a long long time when you are 12.

3. If you manage to graduate high school with good grades because it was really easy or because you actually believed grandpa or someone that it would make your life better someday, you're left with the decision of actually going to college for math/science. This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude. Then you consider that your roommate is a heavy drinking business major with a cocaine habit who still gets A's in all his classes because it's that easy. This guy is going to make more money than you and have a fun time doing it. While the math/science guy is going to have to dedicate himself in a way those other guys will never understand. Subsequently, you will be rewarded by realizing you can't get a good job with that physics BS that you gave your blood, sweat, and tears to earn. Now you need to take 5 more years to get a Ph. D., with of course all the obstacles that stand in the way of that. Hopefully you really do love math/science for their intrinsic beauty or you may be near suicidal at this point. This is when you look back on your life and all you can say is damn. There really is something to be said for taking the easy way out.

It really chaps my cheeks when I hear "our kids aren't pursuing math and science the sky is falling!" You know who else isn't pursuing math and science? All the poseurs who wrote that stupid story. Why don't you take up your end up the rope a**holes. Why aren't people pursuing math and science? Because its damn hard and it isn't at all obvious that your work will be reasonable rewarded. Now of course someone is going to say as they already have on this thread "of course you aren't entitled to anything just because you worked hard and got a physics degree." I'm not saying you are. But if you're worse off than the average business student, it's really a piss poor incentive for people to go into math and science.

 

[comp_math]

While people may say one got to do science for the love of it, wait till you are married and have kids, have a mortgage to pay, etc. Then it will seem like your science job isn't really paying much. Also, you spend all your time doing science, and having not much time with your family or other things.

And by the way, just let your kids do what they are interested in, whether it is business or science, or whatever.

 

[avant-garde]

Hmmm... most of these arguments seem to be focused on science/physics, but how effectively does it describe CS/engineering?

 

[Sankaku]

This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude.

So true. So true. (I liked your rant)

 

[Topher925]

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds.

I would also like to add to this what kids, and by kids I mean me when I was a kid, are taught success to be. When in HS it was drilled into our minds that success was a high class job like a CEO at a big company, a fast car, a big boat, and a trophy wife with boobs the size of Australia. Bottom line, you are nothing unless you have status and money. Therefor, the majority of my classmates went on to pursue degrees in finance, business, law, or medicine in order to make money and be "successful".

I honestly think that society is starting to turn it around though. I'm now seeing a lot more science fairs and things like FIRST robotics that I used to. Plus when you have the president saying that the country needs more scientists and engineers since the financial system is retarded and our manufacturing base is gone, it at least gives you a little bit of hope.

 

[Troponin]

Well this thread has degenerated a little, take your personal story to another thread. But seriously, I don't think the answer to this question is that complicated. In my opinion it is some weighted combination of:

*warning this turned into a pretty angry rant by the end, sorry to be a downer but I guess part of me really feels this way*

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds. Elementary school science is also taught to the lowest common denominator, which is really damn low when your in elementary school. I knew more about science in elementary school than my teachers, so that wasn't exactly going to capture the interest of anyone who had talent.

2. If for some reason you make it to middle school while maintaining an interest in math/science, you still have 6 years of low quality schooling to wade through. If you decide you really really want to be a scientist, it really doesn't matter. All you can do is keep getting A's in classes that are way too simple and unrewarding. 6 years is a long long time when you are 12.

3. If you manage to graduate high school with good grades because it was really easy or because you actually believed grandpa or someone that it would make your life better someday, you're left with the decision of actually going to college for math/science. This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude. Then you consider that your roommate is a heavy drinking business major with a cocaine habit who still gets A's in all his classes because it's that easy. This guy is going to make more money than you and have a fun time doing it. While the math/science guy is going to have to dedicate himself in a way those other guys will never understand. Subsequently, you will be rewarded by realizing you can't get a good job with that physics BS that you gave your blood, sweat, and tears to earn. Now you need to take 5 more years to get a Ph. D., with of course all the obstacles that stand in the way of that. Hopefully you really do love math/science for their intrinsic beauty or you may be near suicidal at this point. This is when you look back on your life and all you can say is damn. There really is something to be said for taking the easy way out.

It really chaps my cheeks when I hear "our kids aren't pursuing math and science the sky is falling!" You know who else isn't pursuing math and science? All the poseurs who wrote that stupid story. Why don't you take up your end up the rope a**holes. Why aren't people pursuing math and science? Because its damn hard and it isn't at all obvious that your work will be reasonable rewarded. Now of course someone is going to say as they already have on this thread "of course you aren't entitled to anything just because you worked hard and got a physics degree." I'm not saying you are. But if you're worse off than the average business student, it's really a piss poor incentive for people to go into math and science.

Okay, this is exactly what I 'wanted' to say, only explained much, much better. I agree 100%, and am actually a little jealous that the point is made so much better than mine. lol

 

[sportsstar469]

i still feel the notion that everybody can do math is very ignorant. you guys are science/math people, and you guys don't realize how much people struggle with math. I am not buying that my problem is i don't care, or that i can do it with good teachers. i have a good teacher now and i don't know the stuff really. i also do not absorb anything she or the tutors say when igo for extra help. il ladmit this semester i haven't done the homewerks, but i have been to class everyday for extra help, and have gone for tutoring every day so it equals out...

but yeah like isaid some people just can't learn it even when its explained to them over and over a thousand times. and for all you people on here who are good at math and are telling others they don't work hard...shame on you./

although i am not trying as hard as i can i will admit that! i also get no benefit when going for the tutoring sessions./

 

[MissSilvy]

i still feel the notion that everybody can do math is very ignorant. you guys are science/math people

Everyone CAN do math, if you're of normal intelligence or above. What most people lack is the background and desire to do so. I'm afraid that most people I know are nose-to-the-bark on a particular tree instead of looking at the forest, if you understand my meaning.

The excuses 'I'm not a math person/I wasn't nurtured when I was young/I don't have the neural connections necessary to do math' to be very stupid. You're essentially blaming your shortcomings on something that's a fraction of the entire experience. It's like saying how you twisted your leg that one time during peewee baseball and that's why you never made it to the big leagues. There's far, far more to it than that and the reason most people seek refuge in these inane excuses is that they take the pressure off of you; after all, how could you HELP that your parents didn't make you do calculus before you were 10 or that your brain isn't two times as fast as a normal persons? Your failure at math simply MUST be due to things beyond your control. Or is it?

 

[Sankaku]

you guys don't realize how much people struggle with math.

No, you don't realize that we (who you think are 'good at math') have to work just as hard, worry that we are not brilliant, and get confused just like everyone else. There are very few people who are genius level in math. All the rest of us just work hard because we desperately WANT to understand. Don't worry about comparing yourself to other people.

If you have some foundational part of math missing from earlier in your schooling, it will make large parts of the subject hard to grasp. Once you have filled in the missing puzzle pieces, everything else will make sense (with normal hard work).

Otherwise, you are just handicapped and should give up now. I will let you make that decision.

 

[sportsstar469]

No, you don't realize that we (who you think are 'good at math') have to work just as hard, worry that we are not brilliant, and get confused just like everyone else. There are very few people who are genius level in math. All the rest of us just work hard because we desperately WANT to understand. Don't worry about comparing yourself to other people.

If you have some foundational part of math missing from earlier in your schooling, it will make large parts of the subject hard to grasp. Once you have filled in the missing puzzle pieces, everything else will make sense (with normal hard work).

Otherwise, you are just handicapped and should give up now. I will let you make that decision.

sure everyone can do some sort of math, but not everyone can do high level math and that's fact. and no you don't get AS confused as others. I've spoken to people who are in calculus 3 classes which is probably much lower than most people here who are on the road to physics. they say calc 1 was easy, and calc 2 they started struggling. these people got c pluses in calc 2 so they're not really math wizards. my school has remedial classes which start at fractions and whole numbers lol. not everyone has the ability to do math. i still HATE fractions and decimals. I've been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower. id like to switch to psychology but i assume you need a lot of math to get a phd inpsych? i know you need at least stats.

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

 

[Sankaku]

ive been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower.

With your attitude toward learning, I hope you never become a school teacher.

"Sorry little Jimmy, you just suck at math and there is nothing you can do about it!"

You would be all kinds of inspiration. In fact, you would be propagating exactly the kind of unfairness that made you hate math in the first place.

If pointing that out makes me an ***, then so be it.

 

[avant-garde]

Basically, if you can READ any text and comprehend those ideas, then you can do MATH. Math and reading are symbolic in nature.

 

[MissSilvy]

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

While I agree, the statement may have been a bit unnecessarily harsh, sitting here and whining instead of trying to remedy your situation makes you seem a bit silly. And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

 

[Klockan3]

Everyone CAN do math, if you're of normal intelligence or above.

While I agree that sportsstar469 is a bit overly negative I don't agree with this. It is very easy to overestimate what "normal" intelligence is since most of your friends and such comes from the upper tiers since similar attracts.

Think like this, only ~15% of graduating HS students even take the first calculus class so those are certainly not a good representation of normal, you will have to go back to middle school and look at those. And yes, there most do struggle with simple things like fundamental algebra. There are just like 5 rules they need to learn, it can't be that hard right?

The problem is that if you have a bit of talent for maths then you will not see the problem those face. You will just see it like this since you don't notice the difference between doing maths and following a recipe from a cookbook:

Basically, if you can READ any text and comprehend those ideas, then you can do MATH. Math and reading are symbolic in nature.

Edit:

And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

If you read the story you would see that this isn't the case, this is coming after a lot of trying.

Edit edit: And yes, while maths is hard for everyone it starts to get hard at different stages and that is certainly not something that only comes from psychological effects. Also even for the talented it is usually harder than other subjects anyway, the easy way out is always tempting. With this I want to say that there certainly are people who don't do any maths who are really smart, and most who study some kind of maths later do underestimate their place on the intellectual gauss curve. You really do feel like an idiot when you study something you have no clue about. And since you never study something you understand in maths you will feel like an idiot constantly.