Optical-EME for licensed amateur radio operators

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility and technical considerations of conducting Earth-Moon-Earth (EME) communications using optical frequencies, specifically targeting amateur radio operators. Participants explore various aspects of transmitter and receiver design, modulation techniques, regulatory concerns, and the challenges posed by atmospheric conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes using a one-watt green laser diode for transmission, emphasizing the need for synchronous amplitude modulation and photon counting to detect reflected signals from the Moon.
  • Another suggests on-off modulation with an RF chirp for the laser, highlighting the importance of a stable clock for low phase noise and proposing the use of FFT for noise reduction.
  • Concerns are raised about regulatory issues surrounding laser use, with references to CDRH and FAA guidelines, indicating a complex bureaucratic landscape that may impact operations.
  • Some participants argue that LEDs may provide better signal-to-noise ratios than lasers due to atmospheric scattering, while others defend the advantages of lasers, particularly their peak power capabilities.
  • There is a discussion about the retroreflectors left on the Moon by Apollo missions, with differing views on their effectiveness as true retroreflectors.
  • One participant mentions the potential of using incandescent lamps as an alternative light source, though others counter that their power and modulation capabilities may be inadequate for the task.
  • The impact of the Moon's movement on signal reception is noted, with suggestions that fast transmitted packets might mitigate this issue.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the effectiveness of different light sources (lasers vs. LEDs vs. incandescent lamps) and the regulatory landscape, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a clear consensus on the best approach for optical EME communications.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various limitations, including the effects of atmospheric conditions on laser performance, the regulatory complexities surrounding laser use, and the challenges of achieving high bandwidth communications given the Moon's surface characteristics.

  • #31
Hop-AC8NS said:
I am not saying your suggestion isn't reasonable. I am saying that I don't understand how to do it. Details, please!
Ionospheric reflection is measured by ionosondes, that sweep from about 1MHz to 15MHz, at a rate of about 100kHz per second.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionosonde

For optical ranging of the Moon, consider initially sweeping the modulator signal at 100kHz/sec, from 740kHz to 1MHz in 2.6 seconds. That should provide a sweep that is within the bandwidth of both the optical transmitter and the photo receiver.

The sweep should be generated by a single chip Direct Digital Synthesiser, DDS, that can perform the same sweep accurately every time for everyone. A DDS is composed of:
1. A fixed "sweep-rate" register,
2. that is accumulated into a (delta phase) = "frequency" register, by a sweep rate clock,
3. which is accumulated into a "phase" register, by the fastest clock,
4. that phase is used to look up a sine value from memory,
5. that goes to the DAC, that provides an analog sinewave output.

For square wave optical on/off modulation, the sine lookup and DAC can be ignored, by using the MSB of the phase accumulator as the modulator input to the optical transmitter.
https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-085.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_digital_synthesis

Analog Devices make a range of DDS chips that could be used to generate the reference sweep, for any good-looking-listener, when clocked by a GPS disciplined reference.
https://www.analog.com/en/parametricsearch/2419#/

DDS is an exciting world of its own. Ask more specific questions to fill in the bits that you don't get.
 
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  • #32
DaveE said:
For 532nm it's the doubler xtal that's both the expensive and hard part.
The doubler crystal (typically KDP) requires a laser source to produce frequency-doubled green laser light. A diode pumped solid-state (DPSS) laser diode provides this at microscopic scale in a standard transistor-style package producing about a watt or so our optical power. It is not as nice, nor as powerful, as the rig used by the APOLLO group for Lunar Laser-ranging: it produces multiple output beams in an elliptical pattern, with multiple transverse modes of emission, rather than just one clean TEMoo green output beam. Some optical manipulation required before sending diode laser light toward the Moon.

I mentioned the possibility of repurposing a used tattoo removal laser if a DPSS laser diode should prove to be impractical. But you are correct regarding a DIY frequency-doubling crystal, such as KDP. No way a ham wants to get involved with such esoteric details unrelated to amateur radio. Some would call that "jumping the shark" but I call it a desperate last resort. I would probably just go do something else and give up on optical-eme if that was my only alternative. It's fine if someone else wants to give it a go... maybe a fellow ham in VK-land will do it. It's a big continent, and optical-eme could turn out to be a useful tool "down under" even if comms with the antipodes is impractical because of geometry.

I have no intention, nor the need, to duplicate what was done for lunar laser-ranging. It will be difficult enough to add digital modulation, using microsecond-wide PCM data bits to a short, millisecond, transmit window at a low duty cycle. I don't anticipate needing to leave the laser beam on for extended periods of time.

I also do not expect to receive enough signal reflected from the Moon to perform analog ranging operations using coherent multiplication of swept (chirped) RF modulation of the transmitted and received signals. The Moon is not a static target and the atmosphere is always somewhat in a state of turmoil and changing in density. These two things alone preclude a long-duration RF chirp being useful. This is a communications problem, not a ranging problem per se.

We do need to know an approximate range (expressed as a round-trip signal delay) to align delayed receiver bits with the previously transmitted bits. At one megabit per second bit rates, knowing the delay to within a few hundred nanoseconds should be sufficient. The bit-rate can be lowered, if necessary to accommodate errors in delay measurement, but I think one megabit per second is a reasonable goal.

Approximately one millisecond of transmit window, followed by an identical period of non-transmitting, will be all that is needed for a short, repeated, message to be recovered from the noise after a sufficient number of repetitions. The time in between these two intervals is irrelevant if a bi-static rig with separate transmitting and receiving telescopes is used, but this "dead" time interval does determine the transmitter duty cycle and affects the average power transmitted.

For reasons stated elsewhere, the size of the transmitting telescope is not as important as the size of the receiving telescope. What IS important is the amount of transmitted power (affects the number of photons per unit time that are sent to the Moon) and the receiver aperture area (affects the number of photons per unit time that are detected back on Earth).

Baluncore said:
Ionospheric reflection is measured by ionosondes, that sweep from about 1MHz to 15MHz, at a rate of about 100kHz per second.
I am familiar with using swept-RF (a chirp) to create, in effect, a narrow-width ranging pulse. I wasn't aware of its application to measuring ionospheric height, which is presumably the purpose of the ionosondes you mention. Fine business that, but I doubt it is relevant to measuring the round-trip delay of signals bounced off the surface of the Moon.

There is only slightly (veeery slightly) more than zero signal returning to Earth from laser radiation sent to the Moon. This is true for any laser power currently available to the public. The APOLLO group, whose intent was the very precise measurement of the round-trip delay time of their pulsed laser beam, did not use chirp RADAR techniques because it is a non-starter. Only statistical photon counting techniques are viable.

Why? Because of the vast distance involved; the poor reflective properties of the Moon's regolith; the severe loss of signal upon retro-reflection using arrays left on the Moon for that purpose; and its propagation as an expanding beam back toward Earth is why.

My proposed communications solution involving PWM pulses, encoding a message that is repeated millions or more times, is one possible, previously demonstrated, way to solve the communications problem.

The measurement of the delay between transmitted pulses and received pulses is required to allow transmitted bits to be aligned with received bits, after accounting for the delay. It does not require picosecond resolution or accuracy.
Baluncore said:
For optical ranging of the Moon
I am not interested, except peripherally, in optical ranging of the Moon. That is the job for professional astronomers with big telescopes and powerful lasers. I am interested in using the Moon as a passive reflector of communications signals. Folks like the APOLLO group demonstrated "proof of concept" by sending a laser beam to the Moon and receiving reflected information (the round-trip time delay) back here on Earth.

Amateur radio operators have been doing so-called "Moonbounce" comms for over fifty years at VHF, UHF, and microwave wavelengths using Yagi-Uda antenna arrays and microwave dish antennas. I read about one ham who does this with a hand-held antenna and JT8 wsjt-x digital modulation. The only thing "new" about it, or the modulation techniques used to perform it, is the operating wavelength.
 
  • #33
Hop-AC8NS said:
I am not interested, except peripherally, in optical ranging of the Moon. That is the job for professional astronomers with big telescopes and powerful lasers. I am interested in using the Moon as a passive reflector of communications signals.
If you cannot detect the range with an FFT transform gain, then you will not be able to communicate. Ranging is the step that lets you know how well your equipment is working. The product of your transmit sweep, by your returned photons signal, is down conversion and photon counting by another name.

Once you know your signal strength, you can phase modulate the DDS output to encode data onto the sweep. You then use shorter FFTs to extract the phase data.

Hop-AC8NS said:
We do need to know an approximate range (expressed as a round-trip signal delay) to align delayed receiver bits with the previously transmitted bits. At one megabit per second bit rates, knowing the delay to within a few hundred nanoseconds should be sufficient.
Do you really expect to have only one patch of the Moon, about one hundred feet deep, reflecting the signal?
Because the FFT computes cosine and sine, you do not need to establish the edges of the photon-counter boxcar-integrator in time, the FFT does that automatically by returning an amplitude and phase for every possible transit time. That gives you critical information about the surface your ghost reflection is returning from, which in turn, will set your maximum data rate.

I expect the modulation sweep will need to be lowered in frequency to give the demodulator a ghost of a chance against the real Moon.
 
  • #34
DaveE said:
For 532nm it's the doubler xtal that's both the expensive and hard part.
The doubler requires a laser source to produce frequency-doubled green laser light. I have no intention, nor the need, to duplicate what was done for lunar laser-ranging. It will be difficult enough to add digital modulation with microsecond-wide data bits to a short, millisecond-wide, transmit window at a low duty cycle. I anticipate having to leave the laser beam on for extended periods of time for temperature stability, using an external amplitude modulator . Commercial laser diodes miniaturize the optics so I won't need a table-top Nd:YAG laser with frequency doubling crystal for optical-eme.

Approximately one millisecond of transmit window, followed by an identical period of non-transmitting, will be all that is needed for a short, repeated, message to be recovered from the noise after a sufficient number of repetitions. The time in between these two intervals is irrelevant if a bi-static rig with separate transmitting and receiving telescopes is used, but it does determine the transmitter duty cycle and affects the average power transmitted. I want to keep the power low to avoid regulation hassles, but keep the duty cycle high to minimize the number of repetitions. The goal is make optical-eme possible, not distracting.

For reasons stated elsewhere, the size of the transmitting telescope is not as important as the size of the receiving telescope. What IS important is the amount of transmitted power (affects the number of photons per unit time that are sent to the Moon) and the receiver aperture area (affects the number of photons per unit time that are detected back on Earth). I don't believe there is any lower limit to the transmit power if a user has enough patience, but real-time QSOs (like talking on your cell phone) are probably not possible.

Thank you for your comments.
 
  • #35
Baluncore said:
Do you really expect to have only one patch of the Moon, about one hundred feet deep, reflecting the signal?
Yes, I expect only one patch on the Moon, a minimum of two kilometers diameter but maybe larger because of Earth's atmospheric divergence of the probe beam, to reflect temporally-tagged photons sent by my telescope toward the Moon. The receiving telescope will use light reflected from that relatively small area, not the full face of the Moon. Note that is temporally NOT temporarily, although I do plan to do this only occasionally. It is the temporal tagging of transmitted photons that allows frame stacking for signal-to-noise improvement and reception of the reflected message.

The depth of the regolith is totally irrelevant. It isn't like water where absorption is a function of depth and turbidity. Even a few molecules of thickness or thinness will reflect somewhere between ten and twelve percent of the incident radiation. Maybe depth is significant for reflecting neutrinos or gamma rays?

I suggest a friendly contest: you try to do optical-eme your way and I will try to do it my way. Winner gets a virtual QSL card via email or this forum. No need for an amateur radio license if you do it with light-emitting diodes (LEDs) instead of diode-pumped light-emitting laser diodes (DPSS LDs).
 
  • #36
Hop-AC8NS said:
The depth of the regolith is totally irrelevant.
I refer to depth in path length variation, if you do not hit a flat spot near the centre of the Moon.

I have the amateur certificate and licence, but am not paid up, because it allows me to have transmitter equipment for modification under Australian law.
 
  • #37
Baluncore said:
I refer to depth in path length variation, if you do not hit a flat spot near the centre of the Moon.
Hmmm. Path length variation is important for a signal that has traveled 384,400 kilometers? Light pokes along at roughly a nanosecond per foot, so if there is a variation in distance of the reflection, that works out to about 100 nanoseconds per 100 feet. I don't think I will worry about that.

Distance variations caused by the Moon's spherical surface that is illuminated by my laser could be important if large enough. I asked my machine friend, Grok, about that as it could smear received bit positions and I have not previously considered it. No worries. The maximum variation in round-trip time-of-flight is on the order of two nanoseconds for two kilometer diameter illumination. Even much larger spots up to, say, twenty kilometers diameter only produce about 200 nanoseconds variation in round-trip propagation time. Curvature of the Moon's surface is not a problem.
 
  • #38
Hop-AC8NS said:
Light pokes along at roughly a nanosecond per foot, so if there is a variation in distance of the reflection, that works out to about 100 nanoseconds per 100 feet. I don't think I will worry about that.
200ns per 100ft because in reflectometry, it must go there and back.
 
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  • #39
Baluncore said:
200ns per 100ft because in reflectometry, it must go there and back.
Ah, got it—the round-trip doubles the timing spread, which could affect bit sync in comms. For APOLLO's small, flat, point-like (from the POV of the Earth looking at the Moon) reflectors, this wasn't an issue. I apologize for my confusion.

I forgot that Special Relativity says it is impossible to measure the one-way speed of light, which—since that speed is believed to be constant in vacuum and not significantly affected by either Moon or Earth gravity—means measurements that effectively measure two-way time-of-flight are also measuring distance.

I learned about (time domain) reflectometry in the mid-1960s when I used it to measure both the length and characteristic impedance of a slightly used surplus roll of Teflon-insulated coaxial cable. I used that cable between my ground-floor barracks-room Novice transmitter and a barracks roof-mounted half-wave dipole antenna. Plus, I had been trained up by the Air Force in how our Ku-band search and track dual radars worked. My only excuse is it's been awhile.

Thanks for the correction on the round-trip—it makes total sense for the observable delay. For bit alignment in optical EME, that spread could introduce smearing, but frame stacking over repetitions should help alleviate it, much like in ranging setups. Grok tells me some of those craters are quite deep, leading to microsecond variations in round-trip delay if I happen to aim my telescope at one of them! That would certainly mess up a one-megahertz bit rate! Two possible solutions: reduce the data rate (does not affect the number of repetitions required, just the "length" of the embedded message) OR aim the 'scope at an area on the Moon with less variation in distance.

I like the second approach because it is easy to aim my telescope (it has about one arc-second optical resolution... not bad for a "beginners" model 'scope) but it is much harder (for me at least) to roll new code to create a shorter message with longer-duration bits. I think I miss not getting a good education in astronomy and physics.

Electrical engineering did pay a little more, but it was years later before I found that out.

Thank you, Baluncore, for your intelligent discussion and replies.