Our sources of fear/anguish; permitted by the physical universe.

[Holocene]

I believe in something very strongly, and that's that "right and wrong" are human fabrications, and are not tangible constituents to the nature of reality. When a young child is sexually assaulted and killed, consider what no one else ever does; what is the ultimate consequence for the universe? Somewhat regretfully, the answer to that question is nothing. In fact, the reality here is just the opposite; the rape and killing was a consequence of the universe, not for the universe. The fact is, it must not matter if a child is raped and killed, because such events were quite obviously destined to happen anyway...no more differently than first-generation stars were destined to synthesize elements heavier than helium.

And so too it must be the case with any sort of phenomenon that induces within us fear, pain, anxiety, disconsolation, and even hatred. All these "negative" emotions are triggered by events that were, quite obviously, not precluded by the physical laws governing the behavior of the universe. And as we have already stated, these events, which comprise reality, cannot possibily be regarded as "right or wrong". An earthquake may kill thousands, but is a geologically-active planet somehow wrong? I think not.

What is to be drawn from this? Why does consciousness give rise to inevitable dissatisfaction with what reality is? Paradoxically, concepts of "right and wrong" have emerged from a universe wherein such concepts were never tangible.

In closing, I think their exists a much healthier outlook on life than what can be acheived through the fabrications of religion and relentless societal influences. The outlook is that there is nothing in your life that can ever be "wrong". Mighty hard to accept when you're in pain, but perhaps peace can be actualized upon the realization that your every waking thought is a part of this universe, and their origins were not simply a consequence of your mind and external influences, but rather were a consequence of the univesre itself; long permitted to happen before your birth, or even the birth of the planet.

...and what is permitted to happen by various physical laws, cannot possibly be "wrong".

Above all, we need to lose this notion that we're "separate" from the univesre, or somehow above it. We are deeply immersed in it, in fact we are the very peices comprising it. The hardest thing to do will be to lose the sense of self. But that too is another fabrication we'd be better off without.

 

[leopard]

"I believe in something very strongly, and that's that "right and wrong" are human fabrications, and are not tangible constituents to the nature of reality."

Also fabrications of evolution. The moral values we have evolved are not random. Some of them are so obvious that I'll call them universal.

"An earthquake may kill thousands, but is a geologically-active planet somehow wrong? I think not."

An earthquake is not an act, like a murder. Nature has neither will nor choice.

 

[Hurkyl]

How do you manage to simultaneously maintain the belief that an instance of rape is destined, but our "negative emotions" are not similarly destined, and that the emergence of our concepts of "right and wrong' are not similarly destined?

 

[leopard]

Good question. Moral relativists shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Hurkyl]

Good question. Moral relativists shoot themselves in the foot.

My criticism isn't a flaw of moral relativism in general -- it only really applies to the no free will argument.

 

[leopard]

I agree on your criticism. Are you a determinist?

 

[runner]

Are human fabrications outside of nature?

 

[leopard]

Of course not. Since we're part of nature, all our behaviour is natural. But: Natural \neq right.

 

[runner]

Of course not. Since we're part of nature, all our behaviour is natural. But: Natural \neq right.

Rightness and wrongness are human constructs.

 

[leopard]

Animals also have moral sense (though less than humans), something that indicates that morals are products of evolution. Opinions on morals of course also vary between cultures, but this doesn't mean that all opinions are equal. Just like the fact that opinions on the early history of the universe varies, doesn't mean make Genesis and BBT equal.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Animals also have moral sense (though less than humans), something that indicates that morals are products of evolution. Opinions on morals of course also vary between cultures, but this doesn't mean that all opinions are equal. Just like the fact that opinions on the early history of the universe varies, doesn't mean make Genesis and BBT equal.

What kinds of moral sense do animals have? How would we know? I'm not familiar with this.

 

[hypatia]

I believe I would need several references to prove the fact that animals have a moral sense. What I have seen in real life, shows me a very different picture.

 

[HallsofIvy]

I believe in something very strongly, and that's that "right and wrong" are human fabrications, and are not tangible constituents to the nature of reality. When a young child is sexually assaulted and killed, consider what no one else ever does; what is the ultimate consequence for the universe?

What is the point of this? Of course "right and wrong" are human fabrications. So what? All important matters are human fabrication and, to humans, "the nature of reality" is important only so far as it affects humans.

Somewhat regretfully, the answer to that question is nothing. In fact, the reality here is just the opposite; the rape and killing was a consequence of the universe, not for the universe. The fact is, it must not matter if a child is raped and killed, because such events were quite obviously destined to happen anyway...no more differently than first-generation stars were destined to synthesize elements heavier than helium.

"such events were quite obviously destined" follows from nothing you have said here.

And so too it must be the case with any sort of phenomenon that induces within us fear, pain, anxiety, disconsolation, and even hatred. All these "negative" emotions are triggered by events that were, quite obviously, not precluded by the physical laws governing the behavior of the universe. And as we have already stated, these events, which comprise reality, cannot possibily be regarded as "right or wrong". An earthquake may kill thousands, but is a geologically-active planet somehow wrong? I think not.

What is to be drawn from this? Why does consciousness give rise to inevitable dissatisfaction with what reality is? Paradoxically, concepts of "right and wrong" have emerged from a universe wherein such concepts were never tangible.

In closing, I think their exists a much healthier outlook on life than what can be acheived through the fabrications of religion and relentless societal influences. The outlook is that there is nothing in your life that can ever be "wrong". Mighty hard to accept when you're in pain, but perhaps peace can be actualized upon the realization that your every waking thought is a part of this universe, and their origins were not simply a consequence of your mind and external influences, but rather were a consequence of the univesre itself; long permitted to happen before your birth, or even the birth of the planet.

That sounds like the desperation of the slave.

...and what is permitted to happen by various physical laws, cannot possibly be "wrong".

And, of course, cannot possibly be "good". We are to have no opinion about anything?

[/quote]Above all, we need to lose this notion that we're "separate" from the univesre, or somehow above it. We are deeply immersed in it, in fact we are the very peices comprising it. The hardest thing to do will be to lose the sense of self. But that too is another fabrication we'd be better off without.[/QUOTE]
You first! Of course, if you had no sense of self, then you could not, as you do here, assert that all these things are true because YOU say so!