Overpopulation, serious political and economical problems

  • Thread starter Thread starter Max Faust
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary
Overpopulation is increasingly seen as a significant factor contributing to political and economic instability worldwide, with current global population growth nearing 100 million annually. The discussion highlights concerns about resource depletion and environmental degradation, suggesting that unrestrained consumption patterns, particularly in developing nations, could lead to catastrophic outcomes. There is a call for more serious discourse on population control, including education on responsible family planning and potential incentives for voluntary sterilization. The debate also emphasizes the need to address cultural consumption patterns alongside population issues to create sustainable solutions. Overall, the urgency of addressing overpopulation is underscored by its implications for global stability and environmental health.
  • #31


Evo said:
The greatest overpopulation is currently in parts of the world that cannot "locally sustain" the people.
How do you validate this statement? How can you define some parts of the world as being more overpopulated than others except with reference to resource-utilization? Are you equating density with "overpopulation?" What about less dense areas, which are nevertheless overbuilt and overrun with ecologically harmful activities, such as recreational beaches, amusement park cities, etc.?

The dream of everyone living a Utopian "locally sustainable" lifestyle would mean that the ratio of people to what they need to sustain their lifestyle would have to be restricted in order to not upset the balance.

Again, back to the need for population control.
You're assuming a conclusion prior to setting up the parameters for research. You're also assuming that "locally sustainable" living is utopian. I have read that the most growing urban form is slums. Slums or shanty towns utilize almost exclusively recycled debris to construct housing. If such areas could be improved in terms of sanitation and agricultural land-use, they could be self-sustaining with a relatively high density (i.e. low sprawl).

At the same time, there are many sprawling urban areas where the first step to densification is really to stop or at least severely limit automotive transit. Once people are getting around by foot or bicycle in such areas, space seems to expand relative to human geography, because cars not only use more space due to their size and speed, but they also scale down your perception of space as you traverse more over a shorter periods of travel.

People also can carry less by foot or by bike, which means they have to take better care of their stuff so that it lasts longer, or refurbish it instead of replacing it. This vastly increases resource conservation.

Urban gardening should be able to replace the market for most vegetables, and possibly some meat as well, although it would probably be just a few goats or cows and some chickens that are raised for fertilizer and people should at least reduce their consumption of meat to being occasional. I think grains and certain crops are more efficiently farmed by machines on a large scale, but these are more efficient to ship because they can be dried and packed into high-density containers.

If these kinds of cultural reforms were adopted, space-utilization and resource-conservation would vastly expand. At that point, it still might be a good idea to encourage cultures of small family size, but the best way to do that is to allow migration to increase urban density.

As urban density increases, people tend to value the space they have more and view small nuclear families as preferable to larger families that demand more space. This way, family planning geared toward reproductive control happens more naturally, as a choice of parents instead of public policy. It is very abstract, though, to construct population-limiting social control for people who aren't directly affected by population growth. That is the reason migration is central to cultural impetus to have smaller families.

It's not just that people in less dense areas don't feel population growth at planetary levels. It is also that people in denser areas look at less dense areas and see that there is plenty of land to expand onto. You can tell them repeatedly that their children won't be allowed to migrate onto such land but they will just see that as ethnic exclusion, which it probably is for the most part.

If you want to replace war and terrorism as the means of population control with responsible family planning, the best approach to take is to combine social-geographical cultural reforms with policies that allow densification through migration. If you want to get more heavy-handed, you could restrict new development in undeveloped areas. This way, people will learn to adapt culturally and economically to tighter land-use policies and scarcer resources.

As such, when they do continue to reproduce, which many ultimately will, the growth will have less of an impact than if they would have maintained a more deleterious culture of land-use and consumption. This reduces the pressure for war, genocide, abortion, divorce, euthanasia, health-care withholding, and other population control measures.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32


Max Faust said:
Quite frankly, I think it's about 20 years too late already.
It's nothing short of *baffling* that so many can't read the writings on the wall. I believe we are going to experience serious shortages of petrol within no more than 5 years from now. The wells are running dry - and this will domino towards raising the cost/effect ratio of industrial agriculture, boosting an unprecedented rise in food prices, while at the same time the insanely leveraged "financial asset" situation will create inflation. It's like a perfect storm!
It's not a "perfect storm." It's the invisible hand of the free market setting up the game board to resolve the problem. Petrolium scarcity forecasts drive investment, which raises gas prices. As a result, businesses are rewarded for tightening their belts and designing more efficient logistics networks. All forms of replacing long-distance shipping with more local labor becomes more profitable. Local food and labor become relatively less expensive. Financial assets simply amplify all the other effects, putting the most pressure on investors to reform their business models to create more efficient industry.

The businesses that receive the most investment/resources in the future will be those that are best insulated against spikes in oil prices. Since water is rumored to be the next commodity after oil to scarcify, truly far-sighted investors will already be gaging which businesses will be insulated against future water scarcity.

Business/industry usually tends to be one step ahead of necessity, but in order for it to do so it needs to have a clear vision of the stakes. Dreams of painless population control only obfuscate such a vision. In reality, population cannot be controlled without atrocious violence and atrocious violence is an impetus for innovating industrial production and distribution practices. Why cope with wars and civil strife when you can reform economic culture and avoid the misery?
 
  • #33


Hi mheslep,
mheslep said:
The rate of population growth for the world is slowing. Population (not rate) is actually shrinking in many developed countries, and if not for immigration would be shrinking in many more. So the solution seems to be to encourage development.

Some examples:
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48&hl=en_US&dl=en
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...d+population#met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:JPN
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...d+population#met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:DEU
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48&hl=en_US&dl=en
I've heard this comment before - it's a very interesting observation. Superficially, it seems true, but I wonder if there are any studies that back it up. I think we have to be able to explain why this might be true and show data that not only correlates the drop in reproduction within developed countries, but also shows why that correlation holds and what might affect it.
 
  • #34


Evo said:
First, tv shows that praise people for having 19 kids and paying all of their expenses should be stopped. We're praising people for being socially irresponsible. Sex education should be a must in all schools. We need to educate people on how overpopulation is hurting the planet and that a responsible number of children per couple is 2. There was a "zero population growth" movement in the 70's and it stuck with me. It was just educational, no rewards, no penalties, just trying to break the old way of thinking that you need a houseful of kids to be happy.
Tell it to the developing world - Africa, L. America - though I suspect they'll want to build the schools before instituting sex ed classes. There is little or no population growth from the birth rate in the US.
 
  • #35


Q_Goest said:
Hi mheslep,

I've heard this comment before - it's a very interesting observation. Superficially, it seems true,
What do you mean superficially? Its a fact the population growth is low or none existent for much of the developed world. If it were not for immigration the population would be shrinking even in the US. Why this is true can be debated, not that it is.

but I wonder if there are any studies that back it up. I think we have to be able to explain why this might be true and show data that not only correlates the drop in reproduction within developed countries, but also shows why that correlation holds and what might affect it.
I've always read that in the third world people have large families a) provide for the family and the tribe, and b) because women have little or no rights. Develop those countries, raise people out of poverty, and we observe these problems tend to go away.
 
  • #36


The fact is that population growth is increasing at ~ 90 million a year. That's net over deaths. That is a problem.

Yes, developed countries have been educated and are more responsible, we need to get the same education and acccess to birth control to developing nations. However the Catholic church went on a rampage towards the UN's attempt at this. http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/overpopulation.asp
 
  • #37


Evo said:
The fact is that population growth is [...] ~ 90 million a year. That's net over deaths. That is a problem.
You had a couple of extra words in that sentence, Evo...fixed.
 
  • #38


Evo said:
we need to get the same education and acccess to birth control to developing nations

Well, I'd tend to think that if you are poor, your (selfish) chances of reaching a comfortable old age will increase the more people you manufacture who are likely to stay loyal to you in a direct and no-nonsense, lofty way. If you can trust your government (in its many permutations) to take care of business, you'll be likely to forego all the rigmarole of raising a bunch of screaming, crazy kids - i.e. "pay the price now for reaping the rewards later". In other words, I think that the more organised and functioning the society-at-large, the fewer kids you will want to manufacture.
 
  • #39


Max Faust said:
Well, I'd tend to think that if you are poor, your (selfish) chances of reaching a comfortable old age will increase the more people you manufacture who are likely to stay loyal to you in a direct and no-nonsense, lofty way. If you can trust your government (in its many permutations) to take care of business, you'll be likely to forego all the rigmarole of raising a bunch of screaming, crazy kids - i.e. "pay the price now for reaping the rewards later". In other words, I think that the more organised and functioning the society-at-large, the fewer kids you will want to manufacture.

What about people who don't have kids to get slaves but who believe in the biblical value of "going forth and multiplying?" Presumably such people see life as a gift, which they want to multiply and give to others.

People who fear population growth and people who see multiplication as acceptance of divine providence seem to be diametrically opposed to me. A passage from the koran actually comes to mind which forbids the killing of wives and children as a response to poverty/scarcity. Basically it says not to kill starving/suffering people because God will provide for them.

The Catholic church also continues to discourage birth control, abortion, euthanasia, divorce, etc. doesn't it? Theologically it does make sense that these are all life-negative activities. The pope actually prayed for those caught up in a "cult of death." I wonder if population-control ideology is part of what he was praying for salvation for.
 
  • #40


brainstorm said:
What about people who don't have kids to get slaves but who believe in the biblical value of "going forth and multiplying?"

I don't believe in the existence of such people.
I do however believe in the existence of psychotic delusions.
 
  • #41


Max Faust said:
I don't believe in the existence of such people.

So let
A = people who don't have kids to get slaves
A' = A intersect C
B = people who believe in "going forth and multiplying"
B' = B intersect C
C = people who have children
D = A intersect B
D' = D intersect C

You're saying that D, or at least D', is empty. This strikes me as unlikely. Do you think that A (resp., A') or B (resp., B') is empty, or just that they happen to have a null intersection?
 
  • #42


OK, I'm going to cry now. Mathematics makes me feel dyslexic.
 
  • #43


Max Faust said:
I don't believe in the existence of such people.
I do however believe in the existence of psychotic delusions.

It's funny you would mention psychoses. I actually have considered studying macro-social imagery such as that constructed by population/demography as causing psychoses. I believe a point can be reached in macro-analysis where conclusions derived at the macro level become experiencable as observables in everyday life. Some people would probably argue that if the science is valid, the experience of its conclusions are not psychoses, but I think the issue is in regards to the link between analysis and observation/experience. When analysis results in observations or experiences, this is the reverse of inductive theorizing and a bizarre perversion of deduction.

Come to think of it, I believe it's called "tautology." This was Karl Popper's main critique of Marxist social science, I think. He said that once you learn to visualize class-conflict, every current event would appear as a conflict between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.

I wonder if population demography has the same effect by making all current events seem like the result of overcrowding and overpopulation? Could this be a form of psychosis?
 
  • #44


CRGreathouse said:
So let
A = people who don't have kids to get slaves
A' = A intersect C
B = people who believe in "going forth and multiplying"
B' = B intersect C
C = people who have children
D = A intersect B
D' = D intersect C

You're saying that D, or at least D', is empty. This strikes me as unlikely. Do you think that A (resp., A') or B (resp., B') is empty, or just that they happen to have a null intersection?

Amazing encoding but I'm afraid I'm too lazy to decode it. If you type this out in uncoded language, I will read it.
 
  • #45


brainstorm said:
studying macro-social imagery such as that constructed by population/demography as causing psychoses

All I have is field work which is based in the "dirty" process of handling reality. I have close-up mouth stenches and dislocated eyes of people wildly out of control, gunshot wounds, and the smell of blood. Not very scientific, in the mathematical and orderly sense, but it leaves an impression.
 
  • #46


brainstorm said:
Amazing encoding but I'm afraid I'm too lazy to decode it. If you type this out in uncoded language, I will read it.

Draw 3 interesting circles and fill them in accordingly. It might take you 2 minutes if you're struggling to draw a circle. You will see the light!
 
  • #47


mheslep said:
What do you mean superficially? Its a fact the population growth is low or none existent for much of the developed world. If it were not for immigration the population would be shrinking even in the US. Why this is true can be debated, not that it is.

I've always read that in the third world people have large families a) provide for the family and the tribe, and b) because women have little or no rights. Develop those countries, raise people out of poverty, and we observe these problems tend to go away.
I'm not suggesting your observation is correct or incorrect, but I wonder where the research is to back it up. It seems like it might be so obvious that we don't need to back up statements like this but I bet there's plenty of research out there that examines exactly what you're suggesting. I'd bet there are social scientists looking to quantify how population growth depends on the level of development, including how to define 'development' and what factors are involved and why. I suspect there is a wealth of knowledge that can put this correlation into perspective. I'd be curious to see if anyone can quote some of that research.
 
  • #48


Q_Goest said:
I'm not suggesting your observation is correct or incorrect, but I wonder where the research is to back it up. It seems like it might be so obvious that we don't need to back up statements like this but I bet there's plenty of research out there that examines exactly what you're suggesting. I'd bet there are social scientists looking to quantify how population growth depends on the level of development, including how to define 'development' and what factors are involved and why. I suspect there is a wealth of knowledge that can put this correlation into perspective. I'd be curious to see if anyone can quote some of that research.
This is huge, but it's "Everything you wanted to know about research on overpopulation and it's effects".

http://atlas.aaas.org/index.php?part=2
 
  • #49
  • #50


mheslep said:
Interesting. Everyone knows that US energy consumption per capita is high, but I also see the US produces far more primary energy (1447 mmtoe) than any other area of the world, including _all_ of the Middle East combined. (1265 mmtoe).
http://atlas.aaas.org/natres/energy_popups.php?p=prodcon&res=high
Whatever, that's off topic. We're discussing overpopulation taking over and destroying land and water.
 
  • #51


brainstorm said:
Amazing encoding but I'm afraid I'm too lazy to decode it. If you type this out in uncoded language, I will read it.

Max, brainstorm: I had no intention of confusing, but just the opposite: trying to learn precisely what was intended by the earlier post.

There are two things Max mentioned: people who don't have kids to get slaves, and people who believe in "going forth and multiplying. There are four natural groups for people to fall into:
1. people who don't have kids to get slaves who believe in "going forth and multiplying.
2. people who do have kids to get slaves who believe in "going forth and multiplying.
3. people who don't have kids to get slaves who don't believe in "going forth and multiplying.
4. people who do have kids to get slaves who don't believe in "going forth and multiplying.

Of these, which do you feel contain at least one person?
 
  • #52


Evo said:
This is huge, but it's "Everything you wanted to know about research on overpopulation and it's effects".

http://atlas.aaas.org/index.php?part=2
Thanks Evo. I read through the article and I agree overpopulation is one of, if not the biggest issue this world faces. mheslep's contention however, is one I think shouldn't be passed up.
mheslep said:
The rate of population growth for the world is slowing. Population (not rate) is actually shrinking in many developed countries, and if not for immigration would be shrinking in many more. So the solution seems to be to encourage development.
I think that's an unusually important fact if it's true. How true it is I'm not sure, but the point seems obvious. I seriously doubt we can turn around and reduce the impact humans have on the Earth. So one solution is to reduce the population, but the question is how.

Projections show a continued rise in population to a level of somewhere between 9 billion and 15 billion, or there abouts, followed by a decline in world population. This trend is illustrated in the graph you provided in post #11 (where'd you get that one anyway?). Is the drop in fertility rate because people will die due to starvation, disease, wars and other issues? Or will population growth control itself as more countries become 'developed'? I've spent some time looking around the net for a decent answer but can't seem to find one. The Wikipedia article on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation" seems to support mheslep's contention that growth is in the undeveloped countries:
- The world population is currently growing by approximately 74 million people per year. Current United Nations predictions estimate that the world population will reach 9.2 billion around 2050, assuming a decrease in average fertility rate from 2.5 down to 2.0.[14][15]
- Almost all growth will take place in the less developed regions, where today’s 5.3 billion population of underdeveloped countries is expected to increase to 7.8 billion in 2050. By contrast, the population of the more developed regions will remain mostly unchanged, at 1.2 billion. An exception is the United States population, which is expected to increase 44% from 305 million in 2008 to 439 million in 2050.[16]
They also provide a graph showing this correlation:
500px-TFR_vs_PPP_2009.svg.png

Why is there a negative correlation between development and population growth as shown in this graph. Why should there be lower birth rates in richer countries when compared to poorer countries? And should we consider GDP per capita a good measure of how "developed" a country is? Or is this an issue of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_and_intelligence" ?

I suspect there's a good answer to what it means for a country to be developed, why those countries experience lower fertility rates and what the best solution is to getting the population growth under control. The answer may be as simple as mheslep suggests, that we need to bring the world's population up to the same standards as the 'developed' countries. But even if that were to happen, I'm not convinced that will solve the crisis. The answer I think is out there, but I don't see anyone digging the right answer out of the existing body of research.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #53


Max Faust said:
All I have is field work which is based in the "dirty" process of handling reality. I have close-up mouth stenches and dislocated eyes of people wildly out of control, gunshot wounds, and the smell of blood. Not very scientific, in the mathematical and orderly sense, but it leaves an impression.

How do you attribute these visceral experiences to overpopulation or other macro-social imagery without a "(macro)sociological imagination?"

Maybe the problems you witnessed were due to some other factor(s), such as economics, infrastructure, culture, etc.
 
  • #54


CRGreathouse said:
Max, brainstorm: I had no intention of confusing, but just the opposite: trying to learn precisely what was intended by the earlier post.

There are two things Max mentioned: people who don't have kids to get slaves, and people who believe in "going forth and multiplying. There are four natural groups for people to fall into:
1. people who don't have kids to get slaves who believe in "going forth and multiplying.
2. people who do have kids to get slaves who believe in "going forth and multiplying.
3. people who don't have kids to get slaves who don't believe in "going forth and multiplying.
4. people who do have kids to get slaves who don't believe in "going forth and multiplying.

Of these, which do you feel contain at least one person?

I logically opposed the two reasons for having kids, although you're right that people could hold both ideologies simultaneously.

My point about "going forth and multiplying," was meant to explain the ideology of having kids that you're simply giving life to new humans, preparing them best you can for adult life, and setting them free to live their own lives for themselves, by their own choice, hoping that they don't end up enslaved by someone else's authority.

Other people do have kids as slaves, though, I think. They basically use their emotional influence over their kids to manipulate things they want from the kids. I doubt many people are so loveless that they only exploit their kids for their own interest, but some may truly not care about or even perceive the interest of their children as independent human beings with a life of their own.
 
  • #55


Evo said:
I don't feel that the answer to world overpopulation is to spread people until every liveable spot on the Earth is packed beyond the ability to sustain them.

I know some people say that sooner or later the issue will resolve itself, massive wars, famine, plagues. Is that how we want to resolve things?

We need to start educating everyone to limit the number of chidren they have.

I strongly agree with you on this. I think most of the ecological problems we have are only catastrophic in terms of continuous population growth. Rather then the goal of lowering living standards, encouraging people to reproduce responsibly seems like a much more reasonable strategy.

I have made the conscious decision not to ever have children. Besides the overpopulation issue, I carry the HLA B27 gene, which has had enormous negative consequences for me personally, and would result in a high probability of such problems for my offspring or their future offspring.

It amazes me that people, even when they learn of my genetic problem, still urge me to have children! Many of these people are the same ones who cry out for government control to reduce consumption in the name of ecology.

The one thing I wonder though: Practically, asking people to lower their standard of living seems like a tough sell. For most people, asking them not to reproduce would be an even tougher sell. Over the long run, of course (the very long run) if such a cultural idea took route, only people who could not be swayed not to reproduce would be left. But luckily we are not dealing with that large a time scale.

I have personally accepted this idea quite readily, although I never found the notion of having children appealing. I wonder if the strong inclination to reproduce (which I don't understand on a subjective personal level, beyond the sexual) is simply too strong to be educated away.

You are a mother. What do you think? Could you have been persuaded not to have children by rational sustainability arguments?
 
  • #56


Galteeth said:
You are a mother. What do you think? Could you have been persuaded not to have children by rational sustainability arguments?
Yes! ...though "persuaded" is too strong of a word.

There are some dots here that haven't been adequately connected. mhslep's simple solution is also a passive one, which is why it is so powerful. It doesn't require coercion, only education.

-We know population growth is lower in developed regions than undeveloped.
-We know population growth is lower in Europe than in the US (even if you subtract-out immigration). In fact, it is negative in a lot of countries in Europe.
-We know that the US has a larger lower class, due in part to immigration continously replacing a lot of people who move up.
-We know that the first fact doesn't just apply globally, it applies in the US: the poor and less educated have more kids.

Now for the connecting of the dots. The rich/educated don't tend to think about population growth as a reason for not having kids. All they do that the poor don't is be responsible and plan. And the cause/effect relationship works both ways: having a child too young causes poverty. So the solution, with its own built-in feedback mechanism, is to encourage reproductive responsibility in children. The result will be fewer single mothers, higher high school graduation rates, which means a more educated, responsible and productive workforce. And people choosing to have kids later in life - planned - means less population growth.

I believe that girls should be given, at a very young age, implantable birth control. Right now, we play a sill game, arguing against reality and betting on the responsibility of teen-agers, all the while encouraging irresponsibility with birth control. A logical disconnect between birth control education and abstinence education can exist: they are not mutually exclusive. You get a flu shot - does that mean you don't need to wash your hands anymore? Of course not. It helps to use long-term/implantable birth control: by making the birth control implantable, you take away the immediacy of the need. Norplant lasts five years. If you implant it at age 13, you aren't saying your 13 year old should have sex, you are saying that sometime in the next 5 years, she probably will - and when she does, she'll be protected. And you can still teach abstinence in your schools till your heart's content.
 
Last edited:
  • #57


Galteeth said:
Rather then the goal of lowering living standards, encouraging people to reproduce responsibly seems like a much more reasonable strategy.
There is another view that as material wealth increases, people become more decadent and lethargic, which is not good for their health or resource conservation. Population decline in wealthy, developed regions is being used as a basis for validating some immigration, while controlling it tightly. The result is that there is greater demand for visa permits that supply of sponsors. This in turn means that sponsors can cherry pick people on the basis of personal interests such as getting a household servant, an attractive accessory for outings, etc.

I am in favor of freeer migration, or at least more democratic control over who migrates and why. The more migration control their is, legitimated as population management, the more cherry-picking goes on - bordering on human trafficking.

The one thing I wonder though: Practically, asking people to lower their standard of living seems like a tough sell. For most people, asking them not to reproduce would be an even tougher sell. Over the long run, of course (the very long run) if such a cultural idea took route, only people who could not be swayed not to reproduce would be left. But luckily we are not dealing with that large a time scale.
You can educate people about both choices, but ultimately the choice to have children is an inalienable right. It is built into your body (most of the time) and political interventions that interfere with a fetus once conceived are ethically problematic (unless it's your body that's pregnant, in which case watch out for pressure to choose one way or the other!)

Asking people to lower their standard of living may be a tough sell, but it's nothing new. Economic rationality has always stimulated people to conserve and consume less than they might like to. People limit their consumption in myriad ways for the benefit of their health and their bottom-line. The corollary of economic resource conservation is that there existing production levels can sustain a larger number of consumers.

It's not so much that people HAVE to lower their standard of living to support more people. It's that increasing consumption is a road to obesity (bodily and in terms of lifestyle), so conservation at the level of personal consumption actually promotes the ability to consume sustainably for a greater number of people.

Have you also noticed that lifestyles associated with higher classes and standards of living are typically more conservative and measured in terms of consumption, with a greater emphasis on management and preservation of resources and economic saving rather than spending? This is a by-product of the invisible hand of capitalism. More wealth stimulates more savings, which stimulates more conservative lifestyles that allow for more happiness with less spending. Of course, there's this bridge people have to cross of liberal consumption and enjoying their newfound wealth when it is the result of social mobility from poverty and desperation.

russ_watters said:
Now for the connecting of the dots. The rich/educated don't tend to think about population growth as a reason for not having kids. All they do that the poor don't is be responsible and plan. And the cause/effect relationship works both ways: having a child too young causes poverty. So the solution, with its own built-in feedback mechanism, is to encourage reproductive responsibility in children. The result will be fewer single mothers, higher high school graduation rates, which means a more educated, responsible and productive workforce. And people choosing to have kids later in life - planned - means less population growth.

Another way to look at this is that having kids is a means to pass on cultural knowledge and wisdom you have acquired and developed in your life. Having kids young is logical if you're poor and unemployed or underemployed, because children are the most precious wealth of all and you already own the mine/factory to produce them. Obviously this is a materialist view of children, which decreases as people get their materialism under control. At that point, having kids becomes a means of preserving cultural wealth and extending your ability to contribute positively to the world by passing on your competencies and wisdom to younger people (such as your own children).

You can pass on culture by becoming a teacher too, but having children goes one step further in that you're giving someone the ability to identify with you as their true parent. I suppose this can also be done through adoption, but I always find it a little sad that people have to give up their kids for adoption because of social-economic circumstances. It makes me question why there wasn't a means for them to combine work with parenthood - unless of course they decided that they just really didn't want to be a parent and this would have negative effects on the child to stay with them. I'm sure people must regret it at some point when/if they do realize the value of having kids.
 
  • #58


russ_watters said:
Yes! ...though "persuaded" is too strong of a word.

There are some dots here that haven't been adequately connected. mhslep's simple solution is also a passive one, which is why it is so powerful. It doesn't require coercion, only education...
Yes, though I'd add wealth or some economic system that makes a modicum of wealth widely available. Probably the two - education and a minimum standard of living - most always go together. If, however, a woman happens somehow into the unlikely position of being be well educated but having no recourse other than living in a hut, cooking from wood fires and is otherwise reliant on male muscle mass for protection and means, then I expect her main role in the society is still going to be one of baby maker in chief for the tribe.
 
  • #59


Without evidence, I'm not willing to accept that a society can be highly educated and still be poor. I don't think that has ever happened and the course of human development seems to imply it can't be that way.
 
  • #60


russ_watters said:
Without evidence, I'm not willing to accept that a society can be highly educated and still be poor. I don't think that has ever happened and the course of human development seems to imply it can't be that way.
I agree in that I can't think any such cases, but neither can I prove it can't be the case, thus I include standard of living along with education.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
5K
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
8K
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 117 ·
4
Replies
117
Views
15K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
7K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
Replies
10
Views
4K
Replies
36
Views
13K