Patriot act and civil liberties

[pattylou]

Some papers are being released at present, that indicate that the FBI has not been following the 'rules.' Most notably from my perspective, they have been keeping people under surveillance without proper paperwork to do so.

FBI Papers Indicate Intelligence Violations
Secret Surveillance Lacked Oversight
By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, October 24, 2005
The FBI has conducted clandestine surveillance on some U.S. residents for as long as 18 months at a time without proper paperwork or oversight, according to previously classified documents to be released today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/23/AR2005102301352_2.html

All related articles:

http://news.google.com/?ncl=http://...article/2005/10/23/AR2005102301352.html&hl=en

I am not certain how many violations involved American citizens. I am not certain if that is relevant - I don't know if civil liberties are considered first and formost a citizen's right, and secondarily a resident's right, and tertiarily rights for people living in other countries.

 

[GENIERE]

Some papers are being released at present, that indicate that the FBI has not been following the 'rules.'

If it is an unwritten policy of the FBI not to follow law then the agency's managers should be punished. If it is a matter of poor judgment on the part of individual operatives then it is more palatable but the individuals should be disciplined, fired, indicted…

I’m not in favor of the Patriot Act and hope it soon disappears, leaving only the provisions pertaining to the mutual cooperation of all the intelligence agencies.

 

[loseyourname]

Oh why oh why did I bother with that thread directory? It took me almost two hours to put that together, but no one uses it.

Before you respond, patty, I know: I'm a forum Nazi, probably a hypocrite, and everyone hates me, justifiably.

 

[Pengwuino]

Hmm... absolutely no mention of the Patriot Act in the article... makes a rational person think...

 

[loseyourname]

Hmm... absolutely no mention of the Patriot Act in the article... makes a rational person think...

Good catch, but I think patty might be right here anyway. From the article:

Most such cases involve powers granted under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which governs the use of secret warrants, wiretaps and other methods as part of investigations of agents of foreign powers or terrorist groups. The threshold for such surveillance is lower than for traditional criminal warrants. More than 1,700 new cases were opened by the court last year, according to an administration report to Congress.

Before the Patriot Act, FISA powers could only be used to authorize investigations on foreign soil. Patriot I extended this power to allow FISA to authorize investigations of domestic terrorism as well. Assuming this is what the complaint is about (I cannot read the first page of this article, so I don't know), then it is a complain about a power granted by the Patriot Act.

 

[GENIERE]

Oh why oh why did I bother with that thread directory? It took me almost two hours to put that together, but no one uses it.

Before you respond, patty, I know: I'm a forum Nazi, probably a hypocrite, and everyone hates me, justifiably.

I think most posters would give you a A+ but you only get an A from me.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think most posters would give you a A+ but you only get an A from me.

But I don't hate him :!) :!) :!)

 

[pattylou]

Hmm... absolutely no mention of the Patriot Act in the article... makes a rational person think...

You mean like this quote, from the original article?

The records are also emerging as the House and Senate battle over whether to put new restrictions on the controversial USA Patriot Act, which made it easier for the government to conduct secret searches and surveillance but has come under attack from civil liberties groups.

LYN, I frankly don't know why you put that directory together. I am far less likely to open a five - plus page thread that resurrects itself, than a new thread on an "old topic" with new information being released. (As is the case here.) But, I recognise that others may be different.

 

[loseyourname]

The idea was that, every time you want to discuss a topic that comes up a lot, we may as well do it somewhere where everyone - especially new contributors - can easily go back and see what has been posted before. Hopefully, this way we can avoid simply repeating ourselves over and over, having to respond to points that we already have.

 

[Anttech]

You mean people in the P/WA forum repeat themselfs? ?
I am shocked

 

[pattylou]

The idea was that, every time you want to discuss a topic that comes up a lot, we may as well do it somewhere where everyone - especially new contributors - can easily go back and see what has been posted before. Hopefully, this way we can avoid simply repeating ourselves over and over, having to respond to points that we already have.

It's a good idea.

One problem is that by the time a thread is 100 posts long, it is as likely to be off the original topic as not.

This is why I often don't open resurrected threads. I assume the tangent that the thread has taken, is what is being discussed.

It seems your concerns as well as my own could be addressed by at least *linking* the older thread in the new thread (Which at least in this case was started because there was *new* information being released about FBI transgressions), so that newer contributors can go back and see what has been discussed before.

I'll make an effort to link older threads. I'll do it now, in fact.

Here is the one I found in the directory that pertains to the patriot act, I didn't see any separate threads that deal more generally with civil liberties:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=83029

 

[Anttech]

Well this thread is already off topic talking about how not to go off topic in other threads

 

[pattylou]

Easy to put back on topic:

According to one FBI senior person, the breaches are not systematic. They are more along the lines of administrative oversights.

"Over the last several years the FBI has been granted significantly expanded authority to undertake intelligence investigations in the United States," the center said in its letter.

The alleged violations centered largely on FBI failures to renew surveillance orders before they expired, or to inform the Justice Department lawyers of significant changes in the surveillance.

Many of the alleged violations involved failure to file required annual updates on the continued surveillance. The requirement allows Justice Department lawyers to monitor the progress of long-running clandestine spying operations.

But, according to the AP, the violations included an alleged violation of bank privacy laws, and improper physical search, and improper collection of e-mails after warrants expired.

The FBI issued no formal response, but a veteran FBI official, authorized to speak for the bureau without attribution, said there were no deliberate or systemic violations.

"Nearly all of these technical violations are of an administrative nature, and very few involve any substantive violations pertaining to searches," the FBI official said. "FBI employees are encouraged to over-report to minimize the possibility that any violation is overlooked."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/25/2fbi.surveillance/

The senate judiciary committee may investigate.

 

[SOS2008]

I’ve brought this up before – I recently refinanced my home, and because of the Patriot Act several forms of ID are required. The problem is, there is no verification process for citizenship before close.

Last week I opened a new bank account. Because of the Patriot Act the bank must ask me if I have any affiliation with people from a list of countries (Iran, etc.). But they don’t ask for any proof of citizenship, and neither is verified.

I get the feeling these things are all going into a data base for reasons that have nothing to do with the right to own property in the U.S., etc. It makes me feel like I live in cold war era USSR or something.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Ver ar yooor papers!?

 

[Skyhunter]

Ver ar yooor papers!?

Ve haf waze uff making you talk!