Periodic Table Element Names: Latin vs. Germanic

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differing names used for chemical elements in various languages, particularly focusing on the contrast between Latin-derived names and those from Germanic languages. Participants explore the historical and linguistic reasons behind these variations, touching on the evolution of language and the naming conventions established by the periodic table.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that different countries use various names for elements based on their linguistic heritage, with Latin names often being used in Romance languages.
  • Others argue that the names of elements have evolved over time, reflecting the historical context in which they were discovered and named.
  • A participant mentions that sodium derives from Arabic, while natrium comes from Greek, suggesting a complex etymology for element names.
  • There is a contention regarding the lack of a central authority dictating language usage, with some asserting that language evolves chaotically based on popular usage.
  • Some participants highlight that the periodic table is a relatively recent development in the context of language evolution, leading to a mix of names and symbols across different cultures.
  • One participant points out that the naming of elements often reflects the background of the scientists who discovered them, many of whom had knowledge of Greek and Latin.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) has established conventions for element names, but acknowledges that historical names persist in various languages.
  • There is a discussion about the broader implications of language differences, including names of cities and countries, suggesting that this phenomenon is not limited to chemical elements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the origins and evolution of element names, with no consensus reached on the implications of these differences. Some agree on the chaotic nature of language evolution, while others emphasize historical context and the role of scientific convention.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the historical development of the periodic table and the naming conventions established by IUPAC, but the discussion remains focused on the linguistic aspects without resolving the complexities involved.

Fizica7
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Hi. Why do some countries use different names for the elements instead of their original names as indicated by their symbol?
Like Na(natriu) is called sodium, Au(aur) is gold, Fe(fier) is iron, Cu(cupru) is copper, Ag(argint) is silver, Pb(plumb) is lead.
I'm from a Latin/francophone country and was taught like the symbol names, except hg which is still "mercur". Is there a difference between all Latin/french and Germanic/English countries?
 
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Fizica7 said:
Hi. Why do some countries use different names for the elements instead of their original names as indicated by their symbol?
Like Na(natriu) is called sodium, Au(aur) is gold, Fe(fier) is iron, Cu(cupru) is copper, Ag(argint) is silver, Pb(plumb) is lead.
Same reason that some countries, regions, or cultures have different language. Those elements have been known the longest and have been know by their latin names: natrium, aurum, ferrum, cuprum, argentum,

Natrium is actually a derivative of the Greek Νάτριο, or νίτρον (nítron)
The name sodium is thought to originate from the Arabic suda, . . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium#History
http://www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/element.php?sym=Na

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chemical_element_name_etymologies
 
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Fizica7 said:
Hi. Why do some countries use different names for the elements instead of their original names as indicated by their symbol?
Like Na(natriu) is called sodium, Au(aur) is gold, Fe(fier) is iron, Cu(cupru) is copper, Ag(argint) is silver, Pb(plumb) is lead.
I'm from a Latin/francophone country and was taught like the symbol names, except hg which is still "mercur". Is there a difference between all Latin/french and Germanic/English countries?
The periodic table is VERY recent in the evolution of human languages and the elements have been known as things (lumps of gold, etc) far back in time so why be surprised that they evolved different words in different languages ... everything else did :smile:

Edit: I see Astronuc beat me to it.
 
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So still lots of countries aren't saying natrium... They're saying sodium. Who told them to say sodium or gold instead of aur/um...Like Pb(plumb) it's lead one minute and it's "plumbing" the next minute when it's used to solder stuff like pipes.
 
Fizica7 said:
Who told them to say sodium ...
Probably the same people who told the French to say "or", the Poles to say "zloto" and so forth when they should all, according to you, be saying "gold".
 
The French do have the word "aurifère".
 
If you want to argue about the evolution of languages, it would probably be best to start a new thread. You asked a question and it has been answered.
 
So the answer is everyone adopted what they wanted...like a free for all.
 
Fizica7 said:
So the answer is everyone adopted what they wanted.
You are still missing the point apparently. Please reread #3 and tell me what part of it does not make sense to you and why it does not answer your question.
 
  • #10
So... According to post 3.. Everyone's language evolved differently... correct of course... And then when the periodic table came along... it had just the numbers and empty spaces for symbols and names so everyone just put their own symbols and names... sort of like everyone ratified it and in the end we got a mix?!?
 
  • #11
Fizica7 said:
So still lots of countries aren't saying natrium... They're saying sodium. Who told them to say sodium or gold instead of aur/um...Like Pb(plumb) it's lead one minute and it's "plumbing" the next minute when it's used to solder stuff like pipes.

language is inherently chaotic. Rarely -- very rarely -- is the usage of some word dictated by a person or a small group of people. Far more often the usage is dictated by the chaotic whims of the masses.

And languages change over time in a chaotic fashion too. I wouldn't expect the language you speak now to be even recognizable by your/our decedents, 1000 years into the future.

Neither dictionaries nor grammar guides are in the business of dictating usage of words or usage of grammar. Rather their primary purpose is to report the present usage of words and language. The key point here is that they report it. They don't define it.

Fizica7 said:
So the answer is everyone adopted what they wanted...like a free for all.

That is actually pretty close to the truth.

Fizica7 said:
Everyone's language evolved differently... correct of course... And then when the periodic table came along... it had just the numbers and empty spaces for symbols and names so everyone just put their own symbols and names... sort of like everyone ratified it and in the end we got a mix?!?

Nobody "ratified" it. The nature is chaotic. There is no central authority that dictates words of any given, common language (regardless of those individuals who tell you differently -- anybody claiming that they dictate the use of a common language are just fooling themselves).
 
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  • #12
It's not just names of some elements that are different in different languages. Also names of cities (London, Londres, Lontoo...), countries (Austria, Autriche, Österreich, Itävalta), and even personal names (John, Juan, Johann, Giovanni...)
 
  • #13
Fizica7 said:
So... According to post 3.. Everyone's language evolved differently... correct of course... And then when the periodic table came along... it had just the numbers and empty spaces for symbols and names so everyone just put their own symbols and names... sort of like everyone ratified it and in the end we got a mix?!?
Please read about the history of the elements and periodic table. Also, note that many educated folks, including scientists, in the past had some learning of Greek and Latin. Often, the name of an element was determined by the person/scientist who identified the element, and the name might be derived from Greek or Latin.

Since the early 1900s, International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC, http://www.iupac.org/home/about.html ) has been responsible for establishing an international convention for the names of elements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen#Discovery_and_use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon#History_and_etymology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table#First_systemization_attempts

http://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/history
http://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/history/about

A number of other chemists before Mendeleev were investigating patterns in the properties of the elements that were known at the time. The earliest attempt to classify the elements was in 1789, when Antoine Lavoisier grouped the elements based on their properties into gases, non-metals, metals and Earth's. Several other attempts were made to group elements together over the coming decades. In 1829, Johann Döbereiner recognised triads of elements with chemically similar properties, such as lithium, sodium and potassium, and showed that the properties of the middle element could be predicted from the properties of the other two.

It was not until a more accurate list of the atomic mass of the elements became available at a conference in Karlsruhe, Germany in 1860 that real progress was made towards the discovery of the modern periodic table.
Of course, various languages have particular names for the elements, but the symbols (of the periodic table) are the same by virtue of international convention.
http://www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/multidict.php
http://www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/language.php?language=de
 
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