Schools PhD in theoretical physics at “prestigious” university

[Vanadium 50]

Not so much.

Sorry, but that is simply untrue. If someone without a PhD in a STEM field meets all the physical and background requirements and can get through officer training school (OTS), the Air Force will still commission them a 2LT. They don't send people through OTS and then if they finish start looking at their degrees and decide whether to give them a commission. They just don't. Everyone who successfully completes OTS is commissioned.

If you want to argue that a STEM degree gives you a higher probability of being offered an OTS slot, I won't argue that.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

If you want to argue that a STEM degree gives you a higher probability of being offered an OTS slot, I won't argue that.

That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry I missed your distinction earlier.

 

[Hypercube]

So when a graduate school decides who gets accepted, am I right to assume that:

1) Domestic student with fellowship;
2) Domestic student without fellowship;
3) International student with external fellowship; and
4) International student without external fellowship

are all assessed equally on their achievements and merits?

 

[radium]

The way it works (which applies to the places you are thinking of) is they admit students (domestic and international) and provide some sort of internal funding such as a TA or an RA. Some schools put all first years on a fellowship so they don't have to teach or commit to a research group the first year. Places you mentioned like Harvard or MIT always do this (admit students with funding) and do not have terminal master's programs.You can apply for external fellowships during the application process, but you won't know if you were successful until after you have gone through the grad school application process. You may also apply for external fellowships during grad school.

Note that there are very few external fellowships for international students if you are at a US institution. There is NSERC in Canada though which you can bring to the US.

 

[Asteropaeus]

What is the point of joining an air force if you want to become a scientist, and a very specific one.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

What is the point of joining an air force if you want to become a scientist, and a very specific one.

It depends on whether your interests align with their interests, and whether you need an external party to help pay for your education.

Usually the DoD based funding wants about one year of service for each year of schooling they pay for.

How many students do you know with educations costing in the mid six figures who are debt free after 5-10 years?

The Air Force can do that for you. After your service commitment is complete, you can be debt free and pursue your career in any direction that pleases you.

 

[Student100]

Just FYI, last time I checked to be commissioned you had to be a US citizen, doesn't sound like that applies to OP.

Why're you focused on self funding? That should be the last ditch option to reach your end goal. If your degree is in something practical like engineering there is always the option to go directly into something like applied physics.

You could also self fund a masters in physics, complete with remedial coursework, and then apply to programs traditionally. Even if the coursework doesn't transfer, it would show you're already capable of completing the program with some level of confidence.

Also, why go from something practical to something less than practical? Why not experimental areas that would put your original background to better use possibly? Would you even care for what the work you'd end up doing entails?

 

[Hypercube]

Wow, you have a lot of questions...

Just FYI, last time I checked to be commissioned you had to be a US citizen, doesn't sound like that applies to OP.

Correct.

Why're you focused on self funding? That should be the last ditch option to reach your end goal. If your degree is in something practical like engineering there is always the option to go directly into something like applied physics.

I am a natural pessimist. I like to assume worst-case scenario, such as failing to get in, or even worse - getting in but not being able to support myself. If there are any issues regarding the money, at least you get to sleep well at night.

You could also self fund a masters in physics, complete with remedial coursework, and then apply to programs traditionally.

Yes, I was considering something like this. Having MSc would open the doors to grad schools beyond the US, places where MSc is a prerequisite.

Also, why go from something practical to something less than practical? Why not experimental areas that would put your original background to better use possibly? Would you even care for what the work you'd end up doing entails?

This is difficult to answer. It's like asking a pure mathematician, "Why don't you do something more practical?"

I have my reasons for wanting that, but I doubt most people here are interested in hearing about it. Nonetheless, I am grateful for all the answers I got.

 

[Rika]

This is difficult to answer. It's like asking a pure mathematician, "Why don't you do something more practical?"

I have my reasons for wanting that, but I doubt most people here are interested in hearing about it. Nonetheless, I am grateful for all the answers I got.

The problem is PhD in "theoretical physics" is more or less an expensive hobby and tbh not as exciting as it may seems. You won't get a job in physics afterwards. It's more like a romance than long-lasting relationship. Doing PhD in applied physics connected with your current degree is more reasonable because it may lead to interesting career.

Each year many young people decide to throw their lifes away. They choose non-marketable degree like physics or (even better) gender studies, get in huge debt and do odd jobs instead of proper career. If they are lucky enough they get better degree or self-teach sth useful but time and opportunities are lost. And if they are not lucky - those opportunities are lost forever. If you are good student (even if little older) and has bright future ahead - please don't throw it away. Don't do stupid dang. Time is precious. Life is precious. Don't waste it.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The problem is PhD in "theoretical physics" is more or less an expensive hobby and tbh not as exciting as it may seems. You won't get a job in physics afterwards. It's more like a romance than long-lasting relationship. Doing PhD in applied physics connected with your current degree is more reasonable because it may lead to interesting career.

Physics degrees are marketable, but one should be open to possibilities beyond tenure track positions at R1 schools.

If one is willing to teach and willing to exploit one's quantitative skills in related fields, there are lots of employment possibilities.

But odds of earning a long term living with the majority of one's efforts in exactly the same field as one's degree on theoretical physics are slim.

 

[Hypercube]

But odds of earning a long term living with the majority of one's efforts in exactly the same field as one's degree on theoretical physics are slim.

Would you say the odds are slim even for graduates from these "prestigious" universities?

 

[Choppy]

Each year many young people decide to throw their lifes away. They choose non-marketable degree like physics or (even better) gender studies, get in huge debt and do odd jobs instead of proper career. If they are lucky enough they get better degree or self-teach sth useful but time and opportunities are lost. And if they are not lucky - those opportunities are lost forever. If you are good student (even if little older) and has bright future ahead - please don't throw it away. Don't do stupid ****. Time is precious. Life is precious. Don't waste it.

I don't know if this is intentional trolling or just ignorance.

People who graduate with physics degrees tend to do quite well in terms of finding employment, starting salary, career salary, and job satisfaction. The APS tracks these things.

 

[ZapperZ]

Would you say the odds are slim even for graduates from these "prestigious" universities?

Yes, and I definitely agree with Dr. Courtney.

You need to remember that there are MANY prestigious universities, even in the US alone, and they graduate more theorists in a year than there are tenure-track openings.

My advice in this type of situation is this: If you are truly determined to study something, go into it with your eyes wide open. What this means is that set your goals, and go for it, but always keep in mind the possibility that you will not get to do what you wish to do. If you have this attitude, then during your academic pursuit, you should be opened to learning skill that might be more marketable rather than just stick to the straight and narrow curriculum. Maybe you'll take more computer programming classes, maybe you'll venture into doing experimental projects that happen to employ a very useful technique, etc... etc.. In other words, you're making provision that if you are unable to pursue the career that you envisioned, then you'd at least have a fair chance of getting employed in another sector.

When I was doing my PhD, I started out learning about thin-film deposition. I learned how to make various thin films using thermal evaporation, sputtering, and laser plasma ablation. I spent almost a year doing this and producing various materials. Then, when I got my RAship, I switched over to doing other things and never went back to doing thin film fabrication. None of the stuff I did that first year ended up in my research thesis.

Yet, when I graduated, my skill in fabricating those films was the one responsible for my job offer. In fact, when I became a staff scientist, they needed someone who can fabricate thin photocathode films. The technique that I incidentally acquired that never became a part of my academic activity, was the one that made me employable and the one that got me hired. Till today, I still work on making thin films.

The moral of the story is that life happens while you're making plans. While it is admirable to have a clear goal in mind, you must always make preparation in case you never get to that goal.

Zz.

 

[Choppy]

Would you say the odds are slim even for graduates from these "prestigious" universities?

While it can play a role in determining academic opportunities, the "prestige" of the university you graduate from is not going to bump you to the top of the list when you're competing for tenure track positions. Your actual accomplishments are far more important.

EDIT: ZapperZ responded while I was typing.

 

[Rika]

I don't know if this is intentional trolling or just ignorance.

People who graduate with physics degrees tend to do quite well in terms of finding employment, starting salary, career salary, and job satisfaction. The APS tracks these things.

Statistics, heh? I do quite well but it's not because I have degree in physics but because of additional schooling and self-teachning additional skills. Statistics don't show that extra work and opportunity costs. APS track all students or only those who allow that? But let's see - only 40% works, from those - half of them works in STEM - usually programming. Which means only about 20% with BSc in Physics works in STEM. It's not that good considering it's US - good opportunities in STEM, double majors, miniors, electives (it's also not shown in statistics). I think most of those 20% got good job because they got additional skills, not because physics major is so good itself.

Anyway it doesn't really matter. The point is - OP wants to do PhD so that he can get a job as theoretical physicists. If that is his goal - I think it's pointless. You can do better with 200k $ and 7 years of your life.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Anyway it doesn't really matter. The point is - OP wants to do PhD so that he can get a job as theoretical physicists. If that is his goal - I think it's pointless. You can do better with 200k $ and 7 years of your life.

Such as?

 

[Rika]

Such as?

Learning completely new job, starting your own business, travel around the world and so on. Now - I'm not saying getting PhD in theoretical physics is bad itself. But OP doesn't want to get PhD, he wants a job and in order to do that he wants to make huge sacrifice. He wants to pay very high price for very small chance and maybe he doesn't realize it.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Would you say the odds are slim even for graduates from these "prestigious" universities?

Yes. ZapperZ answered well above. My experience and the experience of most of my grad school colleagues (MIT) and my wife's grad school colleagues (Harvard) is similar. There will be paths to earning a good living, but very few are in a tenure track position in the same subfield as the PhD.

There are many more PhDs in theoretical physics than there are full time jobs in those fields and sub-fields. Make sure you acquire marketable skills along the way.

"Will work for food" is a better attitude than "Will do theoretical cosmology for food."

 

[Rika]

From what I understand OP is a mature student (probably with a family to support) majoring in something "related to physics" but marketable. He is going to graduate this year and after that wants to work extra hard in well-paid industry related to his degree so that he can save extra money to support himself and his family during his PhD. So he already has marketable skills.

But he wants to stop working for several years when he is 35-40 year old or something so that he can focus on PhD and start brand new career as theoretical physics. But odds for that to happen are close to zero. And price is huge - in order to support you and your family for several years without a job you need a lot of money. So he needs to work extra hard for several years. Not only that - he will have several-years gap in his career. That would be worth it if he could get his dream job in the end. But that probably won't happen and OP has already lost 5-7 years in order to save money and another 5-7 years for PhD at this point. 14 years and OP is back to square one. Even if he gets some new skills during his PhD that won't change his life. He won't be working in physics and he won't earn more money than he earns 5-7 years from now as well-established professional in his industry.

 

[Hypercube]

@ZapperZ @Rika @Dr. Courtney
Ok, so the story is - I am a geophysicist. The plan is to work in resources industry until financial situation permits for me to pursue academia. Why academia? Because maximising profit for the shareholders is just not enough of a purpose for me. If someone asks me 40 years from now what have I spent my life doing, how does "finding gold" or "finding oil" compare to "attempting to develop a unified theory"? The kind of work that you do is incredible. If only life gives me the opportunity, I know I can also contribute to the betterment of humanity! This is why I am trying to collect as much information as I can about my options, so I make the most informed decision when the time is right. If life doesn't give me the opportunity, then perhaps I can use money to "force" my way in. The way I see it, I only need enough money to "swim to the other side". Once I get to the PhD, it's all good.

Job after PhD does not have to be string theory. As ZapperZ suggested, I am open to other areas - perhaps condensed matter physics, quantum information or computational physics, or other non-experimental areas.

From what I understand OP is a mature student (probably with a family to support) majoring in something "related to physics" but marketable. He is going to graduate this year and after that wants to work extra hard in well-paid industry related to his degree so that he can save extra money to support himself and his family during his PhD. So he already has marketable skills.

But he wants to stop working for several years when he is 35-40 year old or something so that he can focus on PhD and start brand new career as theoretical physics. But odds for that to happen are close to zero. And price is huge - in order to support you and your family for several years without a job you need a lot of money. So he needs to work extra hard for several years. Not only that - he will have several-years gap in his career. That would be worth it if he could get his dream job in the end. But that probably won't happen and OP has already lost 5-7 years in order to save money and another 5-7 years for PhD at this point. 14 years and OP is back to square one. Even if he gets some new skills during his PhD that won't change his life. He won't be working in physics and he won't earn more money than he earns 5-7 years from now as well-established professional in his industry.

Your are correct - I cannot do this on my own. Hopefully, my partner can take over from me once that time comes.

 

[Rika]

@ZapperZ @Rika @Dr. Courtney
Ok, so the story is - I am a geophysicist. The plan is to work in resources industry until financial situation permits for me to pursue academia. Why academia? Because maximising profit for the shareholders is just not enough of a purpose for me. If someone asks me 40 years from now what have I spent my life doing, how does "finding gold" or "finding oil" compare to "attempting to develop a unified theory"? The kind of work that you do is incredible. If only life gives me the opportunity, I know I can also contribute to the betterment of humanity! This is why I am trying to collect as much information as I can about my options, so I make the most informed decision when the time is right. If life doesn't give me the opportunity, then perhaps I can use money to "force" my way in. The way I see it, I only need enough money to "swim to the other side". Once I get to the PhD, it's all good.

You are very delusional. About industry, about academia and about life in general. It's not black or white. It's not about soul-sucking industry and doing boring stuff only for money vs working in academia in the name of humanity. Working in academia can be boring and soul-sucking too, tbh it's closer to "finding gold/oil" than to "solving mysteries of the universe" even if you work in string theory. And working in academia doesn't mean you do very important stuff in order to save humanity. Working in industry doesn't mean you can't do important stuff and help ppl. It's not like that. You should know about that if you've read ZapperZ's posts.

Job after PhD does not have to be string theory. As ZapperZ suggested, I am open to other areas - perhaps condensed matter physics, quantum information or computational physics, or other non-experimental areas.

What about PhD in Geophysics? (I'm sure it has more theoretical side). You can do more industry-oriented PhD while you work full time. You don't need to sacrifice so much time and money and it may lead to very interesting career. Why are u so againt it? And why do you want to work in oil&gas if you hate it so much? Isn't it better to find more interesting job with your current degree?

 

[Hypercube]

You are very delusional.

Quite possible - that's why it's always good to ask for second opinion. Talk to people from academia and hear from them what it's like?

You should know about that if you've read ZapperZ's posts.

Ok, so I must've missed that part.

What about PhD in Geophysics? (I'm sure it has more theoretical side).

That is also an option I am considering. Everything I said in previous post - it is not 100%. A lot of things can happen in the meantime.

And why do you want to work in oil&gas if you hate it so much?

I don't remember saying I "hate it". Nor wanting to "saving the humanity" for that matter.

On the other hand... Why do you think academia can be "soul sucking"? In what way is it?
PS I don't mean to start an argument with you - I am genuinely curious about your experiences?

 

[Rika]

My research experience is not that great (half year during my bachelor final year) and it's more about Europe than US - but from my experience (and have some family members in academia) it's soul sucking because it's "survival of the fittest" race. Race for money, grants, contracts, permanent position. You go from postdoc to postdoc, from country to country, from one university to another, from one grand proposal to another, zero stability, you beg for money all the time. You don't do what's interesting or risky - you do what's hot, safe and brings grant money to the university - because without that you can't survive. My thesis advisor (professor so he already held a holy grail of academia - permanent position) was working on single method (and guess what - it was industry-oriented) for 15 years because it was a gold mine. He was improving it little by little, it wasn't hot, myserious and ground-breaking. Slow, steady progress, doing almost same thing all the time. He didn't acually do research - PhD students did. Instead he was sitting in his office all day writing grand proposals, making callphones and writing papers. You need to write papers, a lot - for the sake of writing papers. You could write one, bigger paper but instead you write 3 slightly different. The more the better. He was one of most successful people on my university because while being 70+ years old he was working from 7am to 8pm, had gold mine method, lots of grands, connections and papers. Tbh in normal industry you have less stress and more freedom. You don't need to fight for your survival all the time. If you are good enough - you will get a job. If you don't like your current company or project - you can change it, you can have work-life balance and stable 9-5 job in one company for many years. You don't need to beg for money and prove your skills all the time. You don't have to teach if you don't like it, you can choose location and company you want to work for - in academia you don't have this kind of luxury. That's why I think academia can be dark and soul sucking.

 

[Hypercube]

My research experience is not that great (half year during my bachelor final year) and it's more about Europe than US - but from my experience (and have some family members in academia) it's soul sucking because it's "survival of the fittest" race. Race for money, grants, contracts, permanent position. You go from postdoc to postdoc, from country to country, from one university to another, from one grand proposal to another, zero stability, you beg for money all the time. You don't do what's interesting or risky - you do what's hot, safe and brings grant money to the university - because without that you can't survive. My thesis advisor (professor so he already held a holy grail of academia - permanent position) was working on single method (and guess what - it was industry-oriented) for 15 years because it was a gold mine. He was improving it little by little, it wasn't hot, myserious and ground-breaking. Slow, steady progress, doing almost same thing all the time. He didn't acually do research - PhD students did. Instead he was sitting in his office all day writing grand proposals, making callphones and writing papers. You need to write papers, a lot - for the sake of writing papers. You could write one, bigger paper but instead you write 3 slightly different. The more the better. He was one of most successful people on my university because while being 70+ years old he was working from 7am to 8pm, had gold mine method, lots of grands, connections and papers. Tbh in normal industry you have less stress and more freedom. You don't need to fight for your survival all the time. If you are good enough - you will get a job. If you don't like your current company or project - you can change it, you can have work-life balance and stable 9-5 job in one company for many years. You don't need to beg for money and prove your skills all the time. You don't have to teach if you don't like it, you can choose location and company you want to work for - in academia you don't have this kind of luxury. That's why I think academia can be dark and soul sucking.

Holy sh%t

 

[ZapperZ]

Tbh in normal industry you have less stress and more freedom. You don't need to fight for your survival all the time. If you are good enough - you will get a job. If you don't like your current company or project - you can change it, you can have work-life balance and stable 9-5 job in one company for many years. You don't need to beg for money and prove your skills all the time. You don't have to teach if you don't like it, you can choose location and company you want to work for - in academia you don't have this kind of luxury. That's why I think academia can be dark and soul sucking.

Wow! Really?!

Then why did droves of Bell Labs scientists left (many into academia and various National Labs) after it became Lucent and the need to produce profit margins for the stockholders?

I very seldom hear people in industries having the ability to simply change a project that he/she doesn't like. There is LESS freedom in the private sector than in Academia because of the need to make a profit, especially if you are a public company with stockholders.

In business, everything begins with the profit motive...

I have no first-hand knowledge of the academia atmosphere in Europe, but what you described is no where as severe here in the US.

Zz.

 

[Rika]

Wow! Really?!

Then why did droves of Bell Labs scientists left (many into academia and various National Labs) after it became Lucent and the need to produce profit margins for the stockholders?

I very seldom hear people in industries having the ability to simply change a project that he/she doesn't like. There is LESS freedom in the private sector than in Academia because of the need to make a profit, especially if you are a public company with stockholders.

I don't know about US and tbh I wasn't talking about being scientist in industry but more like professional. When you are let's say programmer and work in big IT company you have much more freedom than people in academia.

In business, everything begins with the profit motive...

Isn't that the same with academia? You need to bring money and grants to university - that's your worth.

I have no first-hand knowledge of the academia atmosphere in Europe, but what you described is no where as severe

In US u don't go from postdoc to postdoc and after 3 postdocs it's game over for you?

Now - I come from country much poorer than US - you don't get any scholarship during your PhD unless you have advisor with grants but still - I don't think that in US academia is nice and fluffy - especially for non-marketable fields.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Wow! Really?!

Then why did droves of Bell Labs scientists left (many into academia and various National Labs) after it became Lucent and the need to produce profit margins for the stockholders?

I very seldom hear people in industries having the ability to simply change a project that he/she doesn't like. There is LESS freedom in the private sector than in Academia because of the need to make a profit, especially if you are a public company with stockholders.

In business, everything begins with the profit motive...

I have no first-hand knowledge of the academia atmosphere in Europe, but what you described is no where as severe here in the US.

Zz.

It probably isn't as severe, but it is still nonetheless true that scientists in academia (tenure track or tenured) spend a considerable amount of their time writing grant proposals and chasing down funding (not to mention teaching, supervising graduate students, and administrative responsibilities) that eat into the time to do research. It is probably also true that scientists don't necessarily have as much freedom to pursue the research they would like to do because of concerns about getting such research funded.

I think what Rika is saying is not that people in industry have the ability to change a project he/she doesn't like, but that it's easy (or easier) for people in industry to change employers if the said employer doesn't offer the type of project work that the scientist wants to work on. Now as far as work-life balance is concerned -- this may reflect Rika's bias since he is based in Europe.

 

[Rika]

And maybe in Europe it's easier to change projects within one company - I don't know that. But in poorer countries it's industry >>>> academia in all aspects and to some extend - it's also true in case of rich countries such as Germany when it comes to work-life balance, salary, stability and benefits.

 

[ZapperZ]

I don't know about US and tbh I wasn't talking about being scientist in industry but more like professional. When you are let's say programmer and work in big IT company you have much more freedom than people in academia.

I disagree. I know of many programmers working in Fortune 500 companies. They do NOT have the freedom that people in academia has.

Isn't that the same with academia? You need to bring money and grants to university - that's your worth.

Nope. Once you get a tenure track position, you can simply coast and just teach.

Now, most scientists don't do that because we get into this field because we have an interest in doing stuff and pursuing the field of study that we want to do. That is why we look for research grants so that we can get students and continue doing what we want. But there's nothing here that says that you need to keep bringing money into the institution.

In US u don't go from postdoc to postdoc and after 3 postdocs it's game over for you?

I'm not sure what game is over here. US National Labs will not hire someone for a postdoc when one is beyond 3 years of one's PhD. But universities set their own standards and limits. Besides, most people really do not want to hop from one postdoc to another, because this is such a temporary situation. After the 2nd postdoc, one has to make a decision on what to do.

Now - I come from country much poorer than US - you don't get any scholarship during your PhD unless you have advisor with grants but still - I don't think that in US academia is nice and fluffy - especially for non-marketable fields.

But do you think your view here is accurate, though, and sufficient enough to warrant that kind of an advice? I will dispute.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

It probably isn't as severe, but it is still nonetheless true that scientists in academia (tenure track or tenured) spend a considerable amount of their time writing grant proposals and chasing down funding (not to mention teaching, supervising graduate students, and administrative responsibilities) that eat into the time to do research. It is probably also true that scientists don't necessarily have as much freedom to pursue the research they would like to do because of concerns about getting such research funded.

Again, we seek funding proposals because what we want to do requires money! It is the nature of doing science. You'll notice that those from the liberal arts and humanities areas do not seek as much money as those in the STEM fields. Yet, they continue to be hired and employed!

Read my post before this.

I think what Rika is saying is not that people in industry have the ability to change a project he/she doesn't like, but that it's easy (or easier) for people in industry to change employers if the said employer doesn't offer the type of project work that the scientist wants to work on. Now as far as work-life balance is concerned -- this may reflect Rika's bias since he is based in Europe.

It is easier to quit in ANY employment, including academia. But to think that one can easily get hired elsewhere is naive, because it depends on what one can do, the demand for such skills, and the economic conditions.

As far as "work balance", a faculty member can take the whole summer off and not work if he/she doesn't want to. And this is strange, because I've seen discussion on here claiming that getting a tenure-track position is a cushiony job. And now we have it being the opposite.

Zz.