As noble as that may sound, it doesn't reflect what everyone else wants to follow, and also does not imply that every highly regarded moral system would want us to do that as well.Dissident Dan said:I want to reduce the suffering in the world. Cutting out the animal consumption helps both oneself and reduces the suffering that farmed animals face--the farmed animal end being the more significant point. I want people to be healthy and happy, but my main motivation is to reduce the suffering of so many animals suffering in animal agriculture, because they suffer so intensely and in such great numbers.
GeD said:This means that even if you were successful in bringing about vegetarianism in western societies, it can only be called as such: enforcement - but neither a necessity nor nobility. Victory in this manner is only a testament of POWER, not of superior ideas.
GeD said:Then the biggest issue is whether humans are superior or not. If humans are superior to normal animals, then vegetarians are in the same boat as meat eaters.
The existence of moral phenomena is still under dispute, but if you assume that they do exist, it still depends on which moral system is actually correct.
Healey01 said:Not to veer form the current discussion, and I'm not sure if this has already been discussed (87 pages to read is intimidating...) but..
Has there ever been any research on whether or not the human population could either:
A) Afford to feed themselves without using meat
What I mean is, could we financially do a conversion without the costs of non-meat products skyrocketing?
B) Survive on a non-meat diet?
Currently meat is a primary source of food which provides high levels of protien and high caloric content by weight. Would overpopulated or starved countries, such as China, N Korea, and the like, be able to keep their population from malnutrition and still be able to produce enough food to meet their nutritional requirements? I cannot think of a non-meat diet that is both inexpensive, healthy (in terms of survival), and could be self-harvested. (People have their own animals to consume).
Just wondering. I still am undecided on my stance. I eat meat, but only because everytime I try to go without it my red blood cell count drops drastically and I lose lots of energy.
You can't really qualify the "food" we give to animals as "food" that we ourselves could consume. If our diet looked similar to that of a cow/chicken's we'd all be unleathy from the overeating of grains.Dissident Dan said:Actually, if more people ate the speciality products such as veggie "meats", the prices would come down, because the scale of production would go up and there would be more competition. As far as traditional plant foods, such as fruits, vegetables, nuts, beans, grains, etc., we would actually need to produce less plant food because we would not be feeding them to animals first (and you get a lot less food out of an animal than you put in). We would probably need to produce more of the types that we don't currently feed to farmed animals, but this would be more than made up for by the fact so many other plants no longer need to be produced.
Actuallym extremely poor countries have to do just about anything for their meat because its one of their few sources of protiens and needed fats. Its also essential for early development of a high-caloric diet. I'm not arguing that its impossible to feed these people without meat, I'm just proposing that it might be tougher due to the amount of needed foodstuffs to be produced for them to replace their current (though lacking) nutritional intake.Dissident Dan said:It is my understanding that most extremely poor people in 3rd-world countries eat hardly any meat, anyway. Instead of spending effort on the inputs that go into animal agriculture, we could spend that effort on producing food for direct human consumption. We could produce much more food given a certain amount of resources on animal-free diets, so feeding a hungry world is actually easier through vegetarianism.
Dissident Dan said:I'm sorry to hear that. How do you know that your red blood cell count dropped? Did you get it tested in a lab?
If you eat a well-balanced diet, you will not have problems. I hope that you weren't eating just french fries and potato chips. Whether vegetarian or not, if you do not eat a variety of foods, you will have problems.
They do. Quite right. We should also not produce crops by intensive agriculture as we do. Unfortunately, we have to eat something. We can avoid the meat but not the fruits and vegies. But you are right. We should be aiming to eliminate all agricultural practices as well.GeD said:What about the insects and other small lifeforms that we kill because of the need to keep vegetables and crops clean? Don't each of those lives (who are killed are more numerously than the animals we slaughter for meat) mean the same as cows, pigs, deer and sheep?
Yes, we should be working to avoid all of our effects. The slaughter of animals is only one of them.selfAdjoint said:That would be phylumism! And don't forget Kingdomism; save the bacteria!
But all killing that we do is a waste, because none of it is inevitable, in the long run. Yes, it may be necessary now. But we can choose to devise the means to avoid it. It is our choice whether to kill or to avoid killing, anything and everything we kill. It is not just killing. It is about all of our effects. We may choose to have any effect we want, or we may choose to avoid to have an effect at all. None of our effects are inevitable.GeD said:We just have to accept the fact that conflict and thus killing is a part of life (albeit, we try to avoid it if it will simply be a waste).
Yes, the goal should be to eliminate farming as we know it completely, globally.Kerrie said:When your produce comes from a third world country where even more animals are killed by agricultural farming because they do not have the standards like America does, then maybe you will see the crisis farmers truly are in.
Absolutely untrue. This is the current situation. But there is nothing preventing us from choosing to work towards a future in which this is not true. There is nothing compelling us to do this killing, except that we have not devise the means not to -- yet. I absolutely do not accept the position that it is not in our capacity to devise the means to change our current situation. We have the capacity. Human creativity is unlimited. We only must choose to express that capacity to make it happen.GeD said:We can agree that whether we are vegetarians or not, it will involve killing thousands of insect life and plant life, and even some animal life.
And some humans are more superior than others based upon their superior biological makeup -- exactly the argument used by the Nazis leading to the exterminations. Perhaps you would not go so far, being willing to tolerate the inferiors so long as they were good to eat. Good for you!Kerrie said:this is a statement based more on opinion yet fact clearly shows humans have and most likely remain the most superior animal due to our biological makeup.
sheepdog said:And some humans are more superior than others based upon their superior biological makeup -- exactly the argument used by the Nazis leading to the exterminations. Perhaps you would not go so far, being willing to tolerate the inferiors so long as they were good to eat. Good for you!
Your feeling of superiority has no valid basis and no constructive purpose.
? If it is possible in the future to eat plants without killing animals, then it is most likely possible to eat animals without killing plants.sheepdog said:Absolutely untrue. This is the current situation. But there is nothing preventing us from choosing to work towards a future in which this is not true. There is nothing compelling us to do this killing, except that we have not devise the means not to -- yet. I absolutely do not accept the position that it is not in our capacity to devise the means to change our current situation. We have the capacity. Human creativity is unlimited. We only must choose to express that capacity to make it happen.
There was no sarcasm. The idea of superiority is one of the most dangerous we can express. The Nazis are an excellent example but certainly not the only ones. I believe I understand your meaning exactly. Your clarification does not provide any further understanding. You are saying we are superior, in numbers, in intellect, in biology. You have made your position clear. It is false. Your sense of superiority is not valid and not constructive. There is no time when anyone taking such a position should not be contradicted. The consequences are too serious. The problems you describe are a direct result not of our actual superiority, but of our false sense of superiority. That is how dangerous it is. I will continue to take issue with the idea of our superiority at every opportunity, and I hope that I am not alone.Kerrie said:knock off the sarcasm, or this thread will be shut down. i am guessing you are intelligent enough to understand the context of my message, stop twisting it to try and make me look bad because you don't like what i have to say.
it is fact human beings are superior, and superior doesn't mean better either. superior that we are an animal that has grown in huge numbers due to medical and agricultural advances. because of our superiority, we have problems, problems with overpopulation and trying to feed everyone adequately. to do so, we have devised animal and produce factories that use all sorts of chemicals that go into everyone's bodies, including yours unless you grow all of your own food.
next time instead of jumping on the attack bandwagon, ask for a little clarification.
It is possible to eat without killing either.GeD said:? If it is possible in the future to eat plants without killing animals, then it is most likely possible to eat animals without killing plants.
Well, the question is, "Should we eat meat?" It seems nonsensical to interpret that question in the present since we do eat meat. Then the answer would be a simple, "of course we do." Seems reasonable to talk about about our future choices, not our present decisions.Also, who stated anything about the situation never changing? I was focusing on the now - not some imagined future, and the fact that both vegetarianism and meat eating will involve killing animals, plants and insects.