Photon interaction with atoms in transparent medias

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the interaction of photons with atoms in transparent materials, specifically addressing why the speed of light in these materials is less than the speed of light in a vacuum (c). Participants explore various explanations, including absorption and re-emission processes, scattering theories, and classical versus quantum mechanical interpretations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference the book by Born and Huang, noting its thorough discussion of wave propagation in matter, particularly in relation to the speed of light in transparent materials.
  • One participant argues that absorption and re-emission would lead to missing spectral lines and loss of coherence, suggesting that forward coherent scattering is essential for light propagation through transparent substances.
  • Another participant explains that the effective speed of the phase front is reduced due to interference effects from scattering sources, while the light itself travels at c.
  • There is a suggestion that a classical explanation involving a dipole lagging behind an electric field can clarify the index of refraction, while others express interest in a quantum mechanical explanation.
  • Some participants agree that the index of refraction is easier to understand from a classical perspective, but also seek a quantum mechanical viewpoint.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mechanisms behind the speed of light in transparent materials, with some favoring classical explanations and others advocating for quantum mechanical interpretations. No consensus is reached on a single explanation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the explanations and the varying levels of understanding of the concepts discussed, indicating that some references may be challenging to interpret.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying optics, photonics, or materials science, particularly in understanding the interaction of light with matter and the underlying principles of wave propagation.

Milad H
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Dear All,
I have read many posts on this forums about the interaction of photons with the atoms of transparent materials. The point that I was searching for in particular was "why is the speed of light in transparent material less than c".
The explanations given by many about the absorption and re-emission of photons by the atoms are quite elaborate. However, there is no mention of scientific references for that theory.
Can anyone, please, provide me with some references where this theory is explained.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Milad H.
 
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The book by Born and Huang, "Dynamical theory of crystal lattices" is one of the most careful and thorough discussions, but quite high brow. Seems to be available online:

http://www.chem.elte.hu/departments/elmkem/szalay/szalay_files/KvantKemSzemin/Max%20Born%20%20K%CA%BBun%20Huang%20Dynamical%20theory%20of%20crystal%20lattices%20%201954.pdf
 
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Milad H said:
The explanations given by many about the absorption and re-emission of photons by the atoms are quite elaborate.

"absorption and re-emission" would result in missing spectral lines, and random loss of coherence because emission occurs at random times and directions. So let's start over:

For transparent substances (glass, air) we know that an image is propagated by the light passing through that material. For this to happen several things have to be true:

1. The waves must retain their relative phases (coherence)
2. The waves must travel in the forward direction (forward scattering)

Forward coherent scattering only occurs for the light which obeys Snell's law while traveling through the material; Snell's law depends upon the angle of incidence, and the index of refraction for the materials (e.g., air-glass-air).

For any wave propagation passing from one material to another there is a "Snell's Law"; it is a property of waves, and the change in speed of wave propagation is a measure of "impedance" of the material. This impedance is due to "forward coherent scattering" which delays the phase-front due to interference effects from the different scattering sources (the Huyghens' wavelet mechanism). All directions which are not the "forward" direction described by Snell's law result in destructive interference; in the forward direction you get constructive interference.

So inside the material the light travels at c, but due to the "forward coherent scattering" a geometric analysis shows that the effective speed of the phase front is reduced ... but once the light crosses out of that material the effects are determined by the new material (air after coming from the glass), and the light has a new characteristic speed. But all along it is traveling at c.

Richard Feynman explains this in more detail in "QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter".

You can find some more detailed information here:
http://www.ece.rice.edu/~daniel/262/pdf/lecture11.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27753743/C...ght-Scattering
 
UltrafastPED said:
The section "45. Local treatment of optical effects", starting on p. 339?

No, it starts already in chapter 8 and basically, the whole book is dedicated to wave propagation in matter.

Not at variance with your scattering theoretic explanation of the problem I think that it is easiest to understand the problem in a purely classical setting. Namely a dipole driven by an electric field will lag behind the field and the radiation emitted by it will be somewhat out of phase. Hence repeated scattering will lead to a softening of the wave (i.e. a smaller wavelength than in vacuo).
 
DrDu said:
No, it starts already in chapter 8 and basically, the whole book is dedicated to wave propagation in matter.

Not at variance with your scattering theoretic explanation of the problem I think that it is easiest to understand the problem in a purely classical setting. Namely a dipole driven by an electric field will lag behind the field and the radiation emitted by it will be somewhat out of phase. Hence repeated scattering will lead to a softening of the wave (i.e. a smaller wavelength than in vacuo).

I agree with above, that index of refraction is easiest to understand classically.
I would like to see a QM explanation also for the index of refraction.
 
DrDu said:
The book by Born and Huang, "Dynamical theory of crystal lattices" is one of the most careful and thorough discussions, but quite high brow. Seems to be available online:

http://www.chem.elte.hu/departments...ynamical theory of crystal lattices 1954.pdf

Thank you all for your help. I already have Born's book, but to be honest it's quite complicated.
I found in Feynman's lectures a "gentler to the mind" version.
 
morrobay said:
I agree with above, that index of refraction is easiest to understand classically.
I would like to see a QM explanation also for the index of refraction.

The QM version is similar to the classical ... the wave function interfers following the scattering events.
 

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