Photons in the derivation of relativistic equations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the role of photons in the derivation of relativistic equations, particularly in relation to concepts of elegance and simplification as attributed to Einstein's work. Participants explore whether photons are essential to understanding relativity and how they fit into the framework of relativistic dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the involvement of photons in relativistic dynamics is a matter of elegance and simplification as proposed by Einstein.
  • One participant asserts that photons are not necessary for understanding relativity, suggesting that other objects could be used for derivations, although they may not be as straightforward.
  • Another participant emphasizes that photons, being massless and traveling at a constant velocity, are relevant in the context of relativistic equations, particularly when discussing momentum and energy transformations.
  • One participant argues that photons can be considered semiclassical objects, fitting into the established relationships between mass, momentum, and energy without the complexities introduced by quantum mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and role of photons in the derivation of relativistic equations. There is no consensus on whether their involvement is essential or merely a matter of convenience.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on interpretations of photons that may not account for their quantum mechanical properties, and there are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of elegance and complexity in the context of relativity.

bernhard.rothenstein
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Do you think that the involvement of photons in the derivation of the fundamental equations of relativistic dynamics is under the likmit of "elegance" and "simplification" imposed by Einstein?
 
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Do you mean the Lorentz transformations?

I don't think photons have anything to do with relativity.
 
Photons are used because they happen to be massless particles and therefore travel at a constant velocity (c) in all reference frames. You could do the derivation with golf balls if you wanted, it just wouldn't be as simple.
 
quasar987 said:
Do you mean the Lorentz transformations?

I don't think photons have anything to do with relativity.


Yes. I mean the transformation for momentum and energy.
I aggree that photons have anything to do with relativity but they start to have when we use them deriving relativistic equations.
Thanks for your answer.
 
bernhard.rothenstein said:
Do you think that the involvement of photons in the derivation of the fundamental equations of relativistic dynamics is under the likmit of "elegance" and "simplification" imposed by Einstein?

I don't think there is anything "inelegant" or "complex" about photons in relativity, at least if you consider them as semiclassical objects without the probabilistic aspects of quantum mechanics. They fit into the general relationship between (invariant) mass, momentum and energy. In 1905 it was already known that the energy density and momentum density carried by an electromagnetic wave are related by E = pc, the same as we now accept for the photon.

QM as we know it, with its probabilistic aspects, didn't arise until twenty years after Einstein first published about special relativity.

Or am I missing your point completely?
 
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