Physical significance of dot and cross products in electrodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the physical significance of the dot and cross products in the context of electrodynamics, particularly exploring the relationship between the dot product and the divergence of vector fields. Participants examine the notational convenience of using these operations in mathematical expressions related to vector calculus.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the relationship between the dot product and divergence is primarily notational convenience, as the formula for divergence resembles a dot product.
  • Others elaborate on the mathematical framework, discussing how derivatives in Euclidean space can be treated as components of a co-vector, leading to the use of the nabla symbol for vector notation.
  • A participant provides definitions for the gradient, divergence, and curl, emphasizing their roles in electromagnetism and fluid dynamics.
  • Some participants question the justification of the divergence formula as a dot product, seeking examples to clarify this connection.
  • One participant highlights that the expression for divergence can be viewed as the dot product of the gradient operator and a vector field, suggesting it may be an abuse of notation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the relationship between the dot product and divergence, with some agreeing on the notational aspect while others seek deeper justification and examples. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the clarity and implications of this relationship.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention the use of Cartesian coordinates and the implications of treating derivatives as components of co-vectors, but the discussion does not resolve the underlying assumptions or limitations of these representations.

nouveau_riche
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i know that del.v=divergence of vector v
and del x v=curl of vector v

can anyone justify for the same? how dot product is physically connected to divergence property?
 
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It is just notational convenience. The formula for divergence looks like a dot product.
 
If you have an Euclidean space (e.g., \mathbb{R}^3 that describes the spatial hypersurface of an observer in an inertial frame in both Newtonian and special-relativistic physics), the derivatives

\partial_i=\frac{\partial}{\partial x^i}

act formaly like components of a co-vector (covariant components).

It's convenient to write this in vector notation as the nabla symbol \vec{\nabla}. In Cartesian coordinates you can now easily play with that symbol to create new tensor fields out of given tensors by operating on their corresponding components wrt. to the Cartesian basis (and co-basis). The most important examples, all appearing in electromagnetism as well as fluid dynamics are

The Gradient

The gradient of a scalar field is a vector field (more precisely a one-form) and defined by

\mathrm{grad} f=\vec{\nabla} f=\vec{e}^j \partial_j f.

The Divergence

The divergence of a vector field is a scalar field defined by

\mathrm{div} \vec{V}=\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{V}=\partial_i V^i.


The Curl

The curl of a vector field is given by

\mathrm{curl} \vec{V}=\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{V}.

The structure of this becomes more clear by looking at it in terms of alternating differential forms (Cartan calculus). Given a 1-form (co-vector) \omega = \mathrm{d}x^j \omega_j, you get an alternating 2-form by

\mathrm{d} \omega = \mathrm{d} x^j \wedge \mathrm{d} x^k \partial_j \omega_k = \frac{1}{2} \mathrm{d} x^j \wedge \mathrm{d} x^k (\partial_j \omega_k-\partial_k \omega_j).

In more conventional terms, you have a antisymmetric rank-2 tensor, given by its covariant components \partial_j \omega_k-\partial_k \omega_j. In 3 dimensions, you can map this uniquely to a vector field by hodge dualization:

[\mathrm{curl} \vec{V}]^j=\epsilon^{jkl} (\partial_k V_l-\partial_j V_k).

Further, since in Euclidean spaced the metric has components \delta_{jk} wrt. Cartesian Coordinates, you have V^j=V_j.
 
DaleSpam said:
It is just notational convenience. The formula for divergence looks like a dot product.

can u justify with an example?
 
Recall
(a,b,c)\cdot(d,e,f) = ad+be+cf
\text{Divergence}(f)=\frac{\partial}{\partial x}f_x+\frac{\partial}{\partial y}f_y+\frac{\partial}{\partial z}f_z=\left( \frac{\partial}{\partial x}, \frac{\partial}{\partial y}, \frac{\partial}{\partial z} \right) \cdot \left( f_x, f_y, f_z \right) = \nabla \cdot f
 
DaleSpam said:
Recall
(a,b,c)\cdot(d,e,f) = ad+be+cf
\text{Divergence}(f)=\frac{\partial}{\partial x}f_x+\frac{\partial}{\partial y}f_y+\frac{\partial}{\partial z}f_z=\left( \frac{\partial}{\partial x}, \frac{\partial}{\partial y}, \frac{\partial}{\partial z} \right) \cdot \left( f_x, f_y, f_z \right) = \nabla \cdot f

how is the left hand side of your second equation, a divergence?
 
\nabla.\phi = \frac{\partial \phi_x}{\partial x} + \frac{\partial \phi_y}{\partial y}+\frac{\partial \phi_z}{\partial z}

It looks like the dot product of \frac{\partial}{\partial x} +\frac{\partial}{\partial y} + \frac{\partial}{\partial z} and (\phi_x,\phi_y,\phi_z).

It's an abuse of notation.
 

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