Programs Physics Masters at undergrad school before PhD?

[CrazyParent]

Note: I am a crazy parent, but I am following my son's journey, not dictating anything, I have just fallen down this rabbit hole and am curious. I like to understand things. Also, my undergrad degree is engineering, so I am STEM experienced!

My son is completing his second year of undergrad with a double major in Physics and Math. He will be able to complete both degrees by the end of his third year. He has almost completed one research project in physics and has an REU this summer. He is trending towards continuing his 4.0 and has a full tuition scholarship at a large state R1 school.

He plans to use his fourth year to take grad level physics (and maybe some math) classes and could possibly complete his masters at his undergrad institution. He is aiming at a T-20 school for Physics PhD, but wants to experience some different research areas yet.

Is getting a masters worthwhile? How would you advise him?

 

[berkeman]

Welcome to PF.

Just to clarify, your son is attending university in the US? And plans to do his PhD also in the US?

 

[CrazyParent]

Welcome to PF.

Just to clarify, your son is attending university in the US? And plans to do his PhD also in the US?

Yes.

My impression right now is that is doesn't matter if he gets the Masters from his institution, but it doesn't hurt. And personally, having had life go awry a number of times, I would say, get the Masters because then you have the Masters in case things happen. I don't know if that is a correct way of looking at it.

 

[Muu9]

Note: I am a crazy parent, but I am following my son's journey, not dictating anything, I have just fallen down this rabbit hole and am curious. I like to understand things. Also, my undergrad degree is engineering, so I am STEM experienced!

My son is completing his second year of undergrad with a double major in Physics and Math. He will be able to complete both degrees by the end of his third year. He has almost completed one research project in physics and has an REU this summer. He is trending towards continuing his 4.0 and has a full tuition scholarship at a large state R1 school.

He plans to use his fourth year to take grad level physics (and maybe some math) classes and could possibly complete his masters at his undergrad institution. He is aiming at a T-20 school for Physics PhD, but wants to experience some different research areas yet.

Is getting a masters worthwhile? How would you advise him?

I would advise him to focus on doing research and taking relevant/important classes without worrying about completing the master's, as grad schools will look at your coursework and research in detail at the final stages of consideration for PhD admissions.

 

[CrysPhys]

My impression right now is that is doesn't matter if he gets the Masters from his institution, but it doesn't hurt. And personally, having had life go awry a number of times, I would say, get the Masters because then you have the Masters in case things happen. I don't know if that is a correct way of looking at it.

<<Emphasis added>> In the US, a master's in physics doesn't afford you much better career opportunities than a BS in physics (this is different from the scenario, e.g., in computer science, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, ...). To get a substantial boost in career opportunities, you need a PhD in physics.

As I've discussed before, having a master's in physics on your resume without a PhD could actually be detrimental. Here I'm talking about a standard physics program, not a specialized applied physics program. That's because a master's is often granted as a consolation prize for grad students who start a PhD program, but do not complete it (e.g., students who complete sufficient grad courses with sufficient grades, but fail to pass the qualifying exam in the maximum allotted number of tries).

Will your son complete a BS thesis? That's a good way to get a taste for research. Also, if he hasn't already decided on a field of specialization, he could take advanced undergrad courses in a variety of specialties; e.g., solid-state, nuclear, high-energy, plasma, ...) to see what he likes.

Another thing to consider is that obtaining a master's will not necessarily shorten his PhD program. Some schools might allow him to take placement exams, and waive out of some (but not all) required courses. Each grad school has its own sequence of courses and required exams. Your son's grad courses might not necessarily map smoothly onto another grad school program.

 

[CrazyParent]

<<Emphasis added>> In the US, a master's in physics doesn't afford you much better career opportunities than a BS in physics (this is different from the scenario, e.g., in computer science, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, ...). To get a substantial boost in career opportunities, you need a PhD in physics.

As I've discussed before, having a master's in physics on your resume without a PhD could actually be detrimental. Here I'm talking about a standard physics program, not a specialized applied physics program. That's because a master's is often granted as a consolation prize for grad students who start a PhD program, but do not complete it (e.g., students who complete sufficient grad courses with sufficient grades, but fail to pass the qualifying exam in the maximum allotted number of tries).

Will your son complete a BS thesis? That's a good way to get a taste for research. Also, if he hasn't already decided on a field of specialization, he could take advanced undergrad courses in a variety of specialties; e.g., solid-state, nuclear, high-energy, plasma, ...) to see what he likes.

Another thing to consider is that obtaining a master's will not necessarily shorten his PhD program. Some schools might allow him to take placement exams, and waive out of some (but not all) required courses. Each grad school has its own sequence of courses and required exams. Your son's grad courses might not necessarily map smoothly onto another grad school program.

I believe a thesis is required for honors designation in his program. A thesis is required for the masters program for sure. Either way, he will continue research. He is planning on taking higher level courses to see what he likes (take a grad level math class fall of third year, possibly a grad level physics class). I didn't think the masters program would shorten the PhD program, but understand on the consolation prize Masters. Based on his current trajectory he should continue to do well.

 

[WWGD]

Yes.

My impression right now is that is doesn't matter if he gets the Masters from his institution, but it doesn't hurt. And personally, having had life go awry a number of times, I would say, get the Masters because then you have the Masters in case things happen. I don't know if that is a correct way of looking at it.

Hi, you may lookup whether your choice of Phd school grants Masters degrees in passing, given to those unable to finish their doctorate. You may want to email the schools registrar office and ask them.

 

[CrazyParent]

Hi, you may lookup whether your choice of Phd school grants Masters degrees in passing, given to those unable to finish their doctorate. You may want to email the schools registrar office and ask them.

The masters would be at his undergrad institution, which I can see the requirements for. From my understanding of the discussion here, he may or may not get a masters while he is taking a variety of upper level physics classes, but it shouldn't be a goal.

 

[CrazyParent]

Thanks for the input all! I do feel like I have a little bit better grasp on what he's looking at next. I can focus on helping my next two a bit... physics is a lot safer than the storm chasing the youngest wants.

 

[gwnorth]

I have a different take on this and I will disclose that I may be biased coming from a country where standalone master's and PhD's are generally the norm rather than the integrated master's/PhD model that is typical in the US.

As the OP's son will have completed his undergraduate degree after 3 years rather than the typical 4 years, spending an additional year, or even two to complete a master's, will not set them back significantly. It will also allow more time to gain research experience and potentially stronger letters of recommendation that could make them an even more competitive applicant for top PhD programs. Also while not a requirement for Physics PhDs, it is becoming more common in the US for it to be necessary to complete a master's before being admitted to a PhD in certain fields, so I disagree that seeing one on a CV or resume would signal "mastered out of a PhD" (plus the OPs son could decide to leave it off their CV/resume). With programs currently experiencing funding cuts leading to reduced admissions cohorts, every little extra advantage, like already having a master's degree could make the difference between getting an admit or not, and many international applicants will also already have a master's degree.

Other advantages to doing the master's include ensuring that a career in research is truly what the student wants, gaining a bit more maturity, and while it's true that getting a master's is not generally required for admission to US Physics PhD programs, having one opens up options in the event that for whatever reason the student decides to pursue a PhD internationally where it will be required.

 

[Muu9]

having one opens up options in the event that for whatever reason the student decides to pursue a PhD internationally where it will be required

This is a good point given the current funding landscape in the US.

 

[CrazyParent]

I have a different take on this and I will disclose that I may be biased coming from a country where standalone master's and PhD's are generally the norm rather than the integrated master's/PhD model that is typical in the US.

As the OP's son will have completed his undergraduate degree after 3 years rather than the typical 4 years, spending an additional year, or even two to complete a master's, will not set them back significantly. It will also allow more time to gain research experience and potentially stronger letters of recommendation that could make them an even more competitive applicant for top PhD programs. Also while not a requirement for Physics PhDs, it is becoming more common in the US for it to be necessary to complete a master's before being admitted to a PhD in certain fields, so I disagree that seeing one on a CV or resume would signal "mastered out of a PhD" (plus the OPs son could decide to leave it off their CV/resume). With programs currently experiencing funding cuts leading to reduced admissions cohorts, every little extra advantage, like already having a master's degree could make the difference between getting an admit or not, and many international applicants will also already have a master's degree.

Other advantages to doing the master's include ensuring that a career in research is truly what the student wants, gaining a bit more maturity, and while it's true that getting a master's is not generally required for admission to US Physics PhD programs, having one opens up options in the event that for whatever reason the student decides to pursue a PhD internationally where it will be required.

To be clear, he will complete the fourth year with grad level classes and research regardless of whether he attempts to check all the "masters degree" requirements.

This is a good point given the current funding landscape in the US.

Yeah, a very good point. He also thought that was a good point. Now looking into the aspects of applying to international programs...

 

[CrysPhys]

Yeah, a very good point. He also thought that was a good point. Now looking into the aspects of applying to international programs...

* If you're concerned about the fallout of US domestic politics, you should also be concerned about the fallout of US international politics: How welcome will US students be in foreign universities?

* Since terminal master's in physics programs are not the norm in the US, you should confirm that the master's program your son pursues (should he go that route) will satisfy the master's requirements that foreign universities specify for admission to their PhD physics programs. You should develop a candidate list of prospective foreign universities and check in advance.

 

[gwnorth]

Since terminal master's in physics programs are not the norm in the US, you should confirm that the master's program your son pursues (should he go that route) will satisfy the master's requirements that foreign universities specify for admission to their PhD physics programs.

This is a good point. The OPs son would want to do a research master's with thesis, not just a course based program.

 

[CrysPhys]

This is a good point. The OPs son would want to do a research master's with thesis, not just a course based program.

The OP previously indicated that his son's master's program would include a thesis:

I believe a thesis is required for honors designation in his program. A thesis is required for the masters program for sure.

But it would be wise to verify that both the courses and the thesis would meet the requirements (e.g., level and content) of prospective foreign PhD programs.

 

[CrazyParent]

The OP previously indicated that his son's master's program would include a thesis:

But it would be wise to verify that both the courses and the thesis would meet the requirements (e.g., level and content) of prospective foreign PhD programs.

So the deal is he has full tuition for four years at THIS institution, which is R1 and a T50 physics grad school program. We will definitely look into it but we won't seek out a new program, it's just get the masters here or not.

 

[CrysPhys]

So the deal is he has full tuition for four years at THIS institution, which is R1 and a T50 physics grad school program. We will definitely look into it but we won't seek out a new program, it's just get the masters here or not.

I didn't mean to switch schools. It's just that if you are now considering a PhD program at a foreign university that requires a master's for admission, you should find out what their requirements are to
determine whether what's available at his current school will satisfy their requirements, and, if so, how to tailor his selection of grad courses and research accordingly.