Poisson brackets for Hamiltonian descriptions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Hamiltonian formulation of gauge theories, specifically focusing on the relationship between Poisson brackets of charges and the Lie algebra of symmetries. Participants explore the implications of this relationship and question its naturalness in the context of gauge theories.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the assumption that the Poisson algebra of charges is isomorphic to the Lie algebra of corresponding symmetries, expressing confusion about why this is considered "natural."
  • Another participant references the Noether procedure to relate the Hamiltonian charges to dynamical variables, suggesting that canonical transformations correspond to diffeomorphisms generated by vector fields.
  • This participant presents equations that illustrate the relationship between Hamiltonian charges and their algebra, noting that the algebra of constraints may not always form a proper Lie algebra due to the presence of structure functions.
  • A mathematical question is posed regarding the properties of Poisson brackets and their relation to vector fields, inviting further exploration of the implications of these relationships.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the naturalness of the isomorphism between the Poisson algebra and the Lie algebra, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the algebra of constraints may not be a proper Lie algebra in all cases, which introduces complexity into the discussion. The implications of structure functions versus structure constants are also highlighted as a point of contention.

haushofer
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Hi, I have a (maybe rather technical) question about the Hamiltonian formulation of gauge theories, which I don't get.

With an infinitesimal symmetry on your space-time M one can look at the corresponding transformation of the canonical variables in phase-space PS. This can be done by a phase space function H[]:M --> PS. The generators of these symmetries give you global charges.

If I generate my symmetry with a vector field [itex]\xi[/itex] or [itex]\alpha[/itex], the statement which is often made is that

[tex] \{H[\xi],H[\alpha] \} = H [[\xi,\alpha]][/tex]

In words: the Poisson algebra {} of the charges (LHS) is isomorphic (=) to the Lie algebra of the corresponding symmetries on your space-time (RHS).

My question is: why is this so natural to assume? Henneaux and Brown wrote an article about the details and adjustments of this assumption (central charges in the canonical realization...), but I don't see why this should be "natural" in the first place. I'm missing something here.

Thanks in forward :)
 
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haushofer said:
Hi, I have a (maybe rather technical) question about the Hamiltonian formulation of gauge theories, which I don't get.

With an infinitesimal symmetry on your space-time M one can look at the corresponding transformation of the canonical variables in phase-space PS. This can be done by a phase space function H[]:M --> PS. The generators of these symmetries give you global charges.

If I generate my symmetry with a vector field [itex]\xi[/itex] or [itex]\alpha[/itex], the statement which is often made is that

[tex] \{H[\xi],H[\alpha] \} = H [[\xi,\alpha]][/tex]

In words: the Poisson algebra {} of the charges (LHS) is isomorphic (=) to the Lie algebra of the corresponding symmetries on your space-time (RHS).

My question is: why is this so natural to assume? Henneaux and Brown wrote an article about the details and adjustments of this assumption (central charges in the canonical realization...), but I don't see why this should be "natural" in the first place. I'm missing something here.

Thanks in forward :)

I hope, I have uderstood your question correctly!

In the real life, we use Noether procedure to write [itex]H_{\alpha}[/itex] in terms of the dynamical variables on PS:

[tex]H_{\alpha} = \int dx \pi \mathcal{L}_{\alpha} \phi \ \ \ (R)[/tex]

where [itex]\mathcal{L}_{\alpha}[/itex] is Lie derivative along the vector field [itex]\alpha[/itex].
It follows immediately from eq(R) that

1) canonical transformations generated by the charge/constraint correspond precisely to the diffeomorphisms generated by the vector field [itex]\alpha[/itex] ,i.e.,

[tex] \{ H_{\alpha} , \phi \} = \mathcal{L}_{\alpha} \phi, \ \ \mbox{etc.} \ (1)[/tex]

2) charges/constraints satisfy the algebra

[tex]\{ H_{\alpha}, H_{\xi} \} = H_{[\alpha , \xi ]} \ \ \ (2)[/tex]

To confirm the consistency between eq{1) and eq(2), we use the Jacobi identity

[tex]\{ \{ H_{\alpha} , H_{\xi} \} , \phi \} = \{\{H_{\alpha}, \phi\} , H_{\xi} \} - \{\{H_{\xi} , \phi \} , H_{\alpha} \}[/tex]

This gives

[tex]\{\{H_{\alpha} , H_{\xi} \} , \phi \} = \mathcal{L}_{\alpha} \mathcal{L}_{\xi} \phi - \mathcal{L}_{\xi}\mathcal{L}_{\alpha} \phi = \mathcal{L}_{[\alpha , \xi ]} \phi[/tex]

However, the algebra of constraints is not, in general, a proper Lie algebra: the RHS of eq(2) may contain structure functions rather than structure constants. This means, in the BRST terminology, that we may have an open algebra. Indeed, it has been shown [Bargmann and Komar] that the algebra of constraints is not isomorphic to the Lie algebra of the "gauge group" of tetrad-gravity.

*****

Ok, here is a math question for you:

Given two function [itex]f,g : PS \rightarrow \mathbb{R}[/itex], their Poisson bracket is defined by

[tex]\{ f , g \} = \mathcal{L}_{X_{f}}g = - \mathcal{L}_{X_{g}}f[/tex]

this means that PB turns the vector space of functions on PS into Lie algebra. Use this Lie-bracket to show that the linear map [itex]f \rightarrow X_{f}[/itex] (which associates to f its (Hamiltonian) vector field) takes Poisson brackets of functions into commutators of vector fields:

[tex][X_{f} , X_{g}] = X_{\{f,g\}} \ \ (3)[/tex]

compair this with eq(2).

regards

sam
 
A, nice! I will look at this tomorrow! Sam to the rescue, again :D
 
haushofer said:
A, nice! I will look at this tomorrow! Sam to the rescue, again :D

It is a pleasure, very time.
 

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