Postulates of SR without inertial frames?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the formulation of the postulates of Special Relativity (SR) without explicitly referencing inertial frames. Participants explore the implications of defining reference frames in terms of "constant rectilinear motion" and the potential benefits or drawbacks of this approach.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose a reformulation of the postulates of SR that omits the term "inertial" but maintains the essence of the original postulates.
  • Questions arise regarding the definition of "constant rectilinear [relative] motion" and how this motion is measured, with some suggesting that it implicitly refers to inertial frames.
  • Concerns are expressed about the utility of the proposed formulation, as it may still imply a preferred class of observers and does not clarify how to relate measurements between different frames.
  • One participant references a paper by Andréka et al. that attempts to axiomatize SR without distinguishing between inertial and non-inertial observers, suggesting that this approach may not be fundamentally flawed.
  • Another participant notes that the second postulate of SR could be seen as a special case of the first, questioning the necessity of restricting to frames in constant rectilinear motion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity and implications of reformulating the postulates without reference to inertial frames. There is no consensus on whether this approach is beneficial or whether it adequately captures the essence of SR.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the historical context of Einstein's work and the distinction between SR and General Relativity (GR), noting that the treatment of non-inertial frames has evolved over time. The discussion reveals a variety of interpretations and assumptions regarding the definitions and implications of reference frames in the context of relativity.

  • #31
As a member of what? The Poincare group in the case of SR? I don't see how that would work. A global coordinate chart, for this space - time is simply the usual pair ##(\mathbb{R}^{4},\phi ) ## and the coordinate system is the 4 - tuple of functions given by ##\phi(p) = (x^{0}(p),...,x^{3}(p)),p\in \mathbb{R}^{4}##. If this coordinate system happened to be set up by an inertial observer and if we have another global coordinate chart ##(\mathbb{R}^{4},\phi')## then whether or not the associated coordinate system was set up by another inertial observer can be determined by the transition map.

On the other hand, each ##g\in G##, with ##G## being the Poincare group, has associated a right translation ##\chi _g##. The killing fields of ##(\mathbb{R}^{4},\eta _{ab})##, that is the vector fields ##\xi ^{a}## such that ##\mathcal{L}_{\xi }\eta _{ab} = 0##, then correspond to the resulting right invariant vector fields on ##G##. So the elements of the Poincare group are intimately related to the geometrical symmetries of Minkowski space - time. I'm not seeing how we can make coordinate systems be members of this.
 
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  • #32
Yes, the Poincaré group in the case of SR. You don't have to define the Poincaré group in terms of killing fields or anything else that involves differential geometry. It's perfectly adequate to define it as the set of maps ##x\mapsto \Lambda x+a:\mathbb R^4\to\mathbb R^4## such that ##\Lambda## is linear and ##\Lambda^T\eta\Lambda=\eta##. With this definition, it's just a subgroup of the permutation group of ##\mathbb R^4##. Since the underlying set of spacetime is ##\mathbb R^4##, any smooth permutation of ##\mathbb R^4## can be thought of as a coordinate system.

The Poincaré group can also be defined as the group of isometries of the Minkowski metric, i.e. as the set of all diffeomorphisms ##\phi:\mathbb R^4\to\mathbb R^4## such that ##\phi^*g=g##, where ##\phi^*## is the pullback function associated with ##\phi##. This definition is equivalent to the simple one above. I prefer it over that stuff involving killing fields, but maybe that's just because I understand this approach much better.
 

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