Product of a symmetric and antisymmetric tensor

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the product of a symmetric tensor and an antisymmetric tensor in the context of tensors in ##R^4##. Participants explore whether the inner product of these tensors results in an antisymmetric tensor and discuss related tensor identities and properties.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the inner product ##SA = S_\mu{}^\nu A_{\nu\rho\sigma}## is antisymmetric in all indices.
  • Another participant suggests that the contraction may not exhibit specific symmetry between the index ##\mu## and the other indices, drawing an analogy to matrices.
  • A later reply indicates that while the product has interesting antisymmetric properties, it is not generally antisymmetric.
  • Further contributions elaborate on the properties of the Levi-Civita tensor and its relationship with antisymmetric tensors, noting that all 3-index antisymmetric tensors can be expressed as a scalar multiple of the Levi-Civita tensor in ##R^4##.
  • Participants discuss the implications of using orthonormal coordinates and the construction of product spaces, detailing specific bases and their relationships to the symmetric and antisymmetric tensors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the product of the symmetric and antisymmetric tensors is antisymmetric. Multiple viewpoints are presented regarding the properties of the product and its behavior under different conditions.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding how the product behaves under general coordinate transformations and the implications of tensor densities.

stedwards
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It seems there should be a list of tensor identities on the internet that answers the following, but I can't find one.

For tensors in ##R^4##,

##S = S_\mu{}^\nu = S_{(\mu}{}^{\nu)}## is a symmetric tensor.
##A = A_{\nu\rho\sigma}= A_{[\nu\rho\sigma]}## is an antisymmetric tensor in all indices.

The basis vectors are suppressed for simplicity.

Parentheses ##(\ \ )## enclose symmetric indices; the tensor remains the same upon an exchange of any two indices.
Brackets ##[\ \ ]## enclose antisymmetric indices; the tensor changes sign on an exchange of any two indices.

Is the inner product ## SA=S_\mu{}^\nu A_{\nu\rho\sigma}## antisymmetric in all indices?

(In a related aside, ##A_{\nu\rho\sigma}## can be expressed as a scalar times a "unit valued" antiysmmetric tensor. Call it ##\epsilon^3{}_{\mu\nu\rho}## in ##R^4##, or the 3 index Levi-Civita tensor in 4 dimensions. But I don't see any internet reference to this animal either. Are my keywords lacking?)
 
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I don't think the contraction will have any specific symmetry between the index ##\mu## and the other indices.

Suppose you were just talking about ##n \times n## matrices. If you multiplied a symmetric matrix S with an antisymmetric matrix A, would you expect the result to have any sort of symmetry?
 
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Ben Niehoff said:
I don't think the contraction will have any specific symmetry between the index ##\mu## and the other indices.

Suppose you were just talking about ##n \times n## matrices. If you multiplied a symmetric matrix S with an antisymmetric matrix A, would you expect the result to have any sort of symmetry?

Well...I am hoping, not expecting.

As it turns out, ##S=\delta##, or ##{S_\mu}^\nu = \delta_\mu^\nu## obtains an antisymmetric tensor for the ##SA## product.

In general, in the orthonormal coordinate system where S is diagonal, ##S = ({S_0}^0,\ {S_1}^1,\ {S_2}^2,\ {S_3}^3)##. The ##SA## product has 4 corresponding, independent values.

I had thought this was sufficient to supply the exception to disprove the hypothesis, but on second glance, no.
 
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The result has multiple interesting antisymmetric properties but not, in general, is the product antisymmetric.

In orthonormal coordinates the tensor ##\epsilon_{\mu\nu\rho}## is equal to it's symbol. Under a change of coordinates, it remains antisymmetric. Symmetric tensors likewise remain symmetric.

We can construct a product space ##\hat{q}_\delta = \hat{\theta}_\alpha \wedge \hat{\theta}_\beta \wedge \hat{\theta}_\gamma##. Bases vectors are identified with hats. ##\hat{\theta}_\alpha## are the contravariant bases of the orthonormal 4-space. ##\hat{\theta}_\alpha## are the covariant basis of the orthonormal 4-space.

There are for independent bases in ##q##. One choice of basis is:
##\hat{q}_0 = \hat{\theta}_1 \wedge \hat{\theta}_2 \wedge \hat{\theta}_3##
##\hat{q}_1 = \hat{\theta}_2 \wedge \hat{\theta}_3 \wedge \hat{\theta}_0##
##\hat{q}_2 = \hat{\theta}_3 \wedge \hat{\theta}_0 \wedge \hat{\theta}_1##
##\hat{q}_3 = \hat{\theta}_0 \wedge \hat{\theta}_1 \wedge \hat{\theta}_2##​

In one choice of orthonormal coordinates, S is a diagonal matrix. Define the elements as,
##a = {S_0}^0##
##b = {S_1}^1##
##c = {S_2}^2##
##d = {S_3}^3##.​

##A= k\epsilon##. All 3 index antisymmetric tensors are ##k## times the corresponding 3 index Levi-Civita in ##R^4##.

Putting it all together, with more abuse of notation (leaving out the basis vectors on the left side),

##{S_0}^0 A_{0\mu\nu} = ak(\hat{q}_0 - \hat{q}_1 + \hat{q}_2)##
##{S_1}^1 A_{1\mu\nu} = bk(\hat{q}_1 - \hat{q}_2 + \hat{q}_3)##
##{S_2}^2 A_{2\mu\nu} = ck(\hat{q}_2 - \hat{q}_3 + \hat{q}_0)##
##{S_3}^3 A_{3\mu\nu} = dk(\hat{q}_3 - \hat{q}_0 + \hat{q}_1)##.

##{S_\mu}^\nu A_{\nu\rho\sigma}## is a linear combination of 3 out of 4 of 3-index Levi-Civita tensors of ##R^4## in orthonormal coordinates.

How this variegates under a general coordinate transformation, I don't know yet. I could be more literate in tensor densities.​
 
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