Proofs with epsilon delta (real analysis)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding proofs involving epsilon-delta definitions in real analysis, specifically focusing on the continuity of functions and uniform continuity. Participants explore the implications of these definitions and the logical steps involved in the proofs.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether setting f(x) - c as epsilon is valid and whether a triangle inequality is being used in the proof of the openness of the set E_c.
  • Another participant clarifies that in proving the openness of E_c, one can choose epsilon as f(x) - c, leading to a corresponding delta.
  • There is a discussion about the confusion surrounding the delta functions and the guarantee of their existence in the context of uniform continuity.
  • One participant suggests that the case-by-case analysis simplifies the proof compared to using a triangle inequality.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the definition of limits ensures the existence of delta for every epsilon in the context of uniform continuity.
  • Concerns are raised about the lack of distinction between continuity and uniform continuity in the definitions provided, although one participant acknowledges understanding the difference.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the proofs and definitions, indicating that while some concepts are clarified, there remains uncertainty about the implications and distinctions between continuity and uniform continuity. No consensus is reached on all points discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for careful consideration of definitions and the relationships between epsilon and delta in proofs, as well as the implications of continuity versus uniform continuity. Some assumptions about the continuity of functions and the behavior of delta in relation to epsilon are not fully resolved.

Wingeer
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Hello,
I have stumbled upon a couple of proofs, but I can not seem to get an intuitive grasp on the what's and the whys in the steps of the proofs. Strictly logical I think I get it. Enough talk however.
Number 1.
"Let f be a continuous function on the real numbers. Then the set {x in R : f(x)>c} is open for any c in R.
Proof:
Let:
E_c = \{x \in \mathbf{R}:f(x)>c \}.
Assume that x is in E sub c, we have f(x)>c since f is continuous at x there exists delta such that:
|f(x) - f(y)|<f(x)-c
whenever
|x-y|< \delta.
For such y we have:
f(y) \ge f(x) - |f(x) - f(y)| > f(x) - (f(x) - c)=c
and y is in E sub c. We have shown that
(x- \delta, x + \delta) \subset E_c and there the set is open."

I get why the set is open and the algebra in the previous step. However I am wondering: Are we kind of setting f(x)-c as our epsilon? And to get to the second last line, are we using some kind of triangle inequality?

2.
"Let f be a function on X, for each positive delta we define:
\omega_{f,X}(\delta)= sup \{|f(x) - f(y)|: x,y \in X, |x-y|<\delta \}.
f is uniformly continuous on X (1) if and only if lim_{\delta \to 0} \omega_{f,X}(\delta)=0. (2)
Proof:
By definition, f is uniformly continuous on X if for any epsilon greater than zero there exists \delta(\epsilon)>0 such that \omega_{f,X}(\delta(\epsilon))<\epsilon.
Now, assume (2). Then for any epsilon greater than zero there exists \delta(\epsilon)>0 such that \omega_{f,X}(\delta(\epsilon))<\epsilon and f is uniformly continuous.
Assume (1). Then for any epsilon greater than zero there exists \delta(\epsilon)>0 such that \omega_{f,X}(\delta(\epsilon))<\epsilon.
Clearly, omega is greater than or equal to zero and non-increasing. We have:
\omega_{f,X}(\delta)<\epsilon
for any \delta \le \delta(\epsilon) and lim_{\delta \to 0} \omega_{f,X}(\delta)=0 which we were supposed to prove."

I get a bit confused about the delta functions. What does those mean? In proving (2)=>(1) how can we "guarantee" that there exists such deltas?
In the last step of (1)=>(2), since it is non-increasing, should there not be \omega_{f,X}(\delta) \le \epsilon, since \delta \le \delta(\epsilon).
Or am I missing a point along the way?
Thanks.

Edit:
Why can't I have LaTeX coding and regular text in the same paragraph? It looks horribly messy.
 
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I'll start with 1.
It's indeed a tricky exercise, because delta becomes epsilon, which might be very confusing. However, you should always write down what you know first. Since f is continuous, you have
\forall \epsilon\exists \delta: |x-y|<\delta\Rightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<\epsilon
And you want to prove that E_c is open, which means
\exists \epsilon: |x-y|<\epsilon\Rightarrow f(y) \in E_c
which means that f(y)>c
Now you choose as \epsilon from the FIRST equation \epsilon=f(x)-c
This gives you a \delta such that
|x-y|<\delta\Rightarrow |f(x)-f(y)|<f(x)-c
So, as you see, \delta becomes \epsilon or vice versa, however you want to put it. Now, to finish the deal, you do a case-by-case analysis. In case that f(x)>f(y) you get
c<f(x)-f(x)+f(y)=f(y)
In case that f(y)>f(x) you're done already since f(x)>c by assumption.
 
Aha. I think I see. The difference in this from other proofs is that instead of finding a delta so that the conditional is true, we are actually finding an epsilon. If that is what you meant by delta becoming epsilon? And since the function is continuous we are allowed to choose which value for epsilon we want, because we are guaranteed that there exists a delta "corresponding" to it?
The case-by-case analysis is actually way easier than fooling around with some reversed triangle inequality, or whatever. Thank you! Could you do the second as well? :-)
 
2.
To answer your first question "why is there such a delta": It's the definition of the limit.
Limit means that for every epsilon you can find a delta such that for all x<delta you get f(x)<epsilon (assuming the limit is 0 with x->0).
This exercise is a piece of cake if you write down the definition of the limit and uniformly continuity.
uniformly continuity means that
\forall \epsilon \exists \delta: |x-y|&lt;\delta\Rightarrow|f(x)-f(y)|&lt;\epsilon
\lim_{x\rightarrow 0} f(x)=0 means
\forall \epsilon \exists \delta: x &lt; \delta \Rightarrow f(x) &lt; \epsilon
now take \omega_{f,X}(\delta) and you've got it basically written there. Keep in mind that if |f(x)-f(y)|&lt;\epsilon it follows that \sup\{|f(x)-f(y)|\}\leq\epsilon
 
Yes, it is the definition. But don't we have to prove that the function will be less than epsilon?
In this and your last post there is no difference in your definition of continuity and uniform continuity. However I know the difference, so it is no harm.
If you take the function with input delta, you get that delta>delta?
 

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