Proper time to reach the singularity of a Schwarschild black hole

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of proper time for an object falling into a Schwarzschild black hole, specifically addressing the proper time to reach the singularity. Participants explore the implications of using Schwarzschild coordinates versus other coordinate systems, such as Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates, in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a calculation for proper time to fall into a Schwarzschild black hole, noting that the integral appears finite for both the event horizon and the singularity.
  • Another participant agrees that the radial coordinate ##r## is well-defined throughout the spacetime, but expresses caution regarding the use of Schwarzschild coordinates at the horizon.
  • A later reply suggests that translating the problem into Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates could provide a more reliable framework for the analysis.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of the integral used in the calculation, particularly regarding the use of the ##\cosh^{-1}## function, which is questioned for its domain.
  • One participant corrects a previous typo, indicating that it should be ##\cos^{-1}## instead of ##\cosh^{-1}##, but does not resolve the broader concerns about the integration process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reliability of the calculations performed using Schwarzschild coordinates, with some suggesting that alternative coordinates may be necessary for a complete understanding. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the validity of the integral and the implications of the coordinate choice.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made in the calculations, particularly concerning the behavior of the integral at the horizon and the validity of the coordinate systems used. The discussion highlights the need for careful consideration of these aspects without reaching a definitive conclusion.

Reggid
Messages
45
Reaction score
53
TL;DR
I have a question on how to calculate the proper time to reach the singularity of a Schwarzschild black hole using Schwarzschild coordinates.
When calculating the proper time along a timelike radial geodesic, with the initial condition that object the starts at rest at some Schwarzschild coordinate ##r_0>r_S##, i.e.
\frac{\mathrm{d}r}{\mathrm{d}\tau}\Bigg|_{r=r_0}=0\;,
after using the equations of motion one finds
\mathrm{d}\tau=-\mathrm{d}r\,\sqrt{\frac{r_0}{r_S}}\sqrt{\frac{r}{r_0-r}}\;.
So the proper time to fall down to some Schwarzschild coordinate ##r<r_0## is
\tau (r)=-\sqrt{\frac{r_0}{r_S}}\int_{r_0}^{r}\mathrm{d}r^\prime\,\sqrt{\frac{r^\prime}{r_0-r^\prime}}=\sqrt{\frac{r_0}{r_S}}\biggl(\sqrt{r(r_0-r)}+r_0\cosh ^{-1}\Bigl(\sqrt{\frac{r}{r_0}}\Bigr)\biggr)\;.
From this result one can see that the proper time to reach the event horizon ##\tau(r=r_S)## is finite.

I know that until here everything is fine, but the above integral is also perfectly finite for ##r=0##, such that the proper time to reach the singularity is
\tau(r=0)=\frac{\pi r_0^{3/2}}{2r_S^{1/2}}\;.
Now my question is: is this calculation also reliable beyond the horizon?
On the one hand everything is finite and everything is expressed in terms of invariant proper time (no reference to coordinate time ##t## that diverges at the horizon is needed).
But on the other hand I know that Schwarzschild coordinates only describe the patch of spacetime that lies outside the horizon, so maybe one would first have to go to coordinates that can be extended to the region beyond the horizon to be able to derive that result.
I have the feeling that the result could be correct, but still the way I obtained it is somewhat "sloppy" or not not really OK.

Can somebody help?

Thanks for any answers.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
It works because ##r## is definable all the way in (it's the areal radius of the spherical shells reflecting the symmetry of the spacetime), so ##dr/d\tau## is defined everywhere. I agree that using the Schwarzschild coordinate expression of the geodesic equation to get to that point is a bit sketchy because the coordinates don't work at the horizon (although they work above and below it).

I've not done this myself, but I think that formally you could translate everything into a coordinate system that does work at the horizon - e.g. Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates. Since they share a definition of the radial coordinate, ##r##, with Schwarzschild coordinates, that ought to give you the same ##dr/d\tau##.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Reggid
Thank you for your answer.

Yes you are right, using Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates it is actually very easy to see that they give you the same expression for ##\mathrm{d}r/\mathrm{d}\tau## (as they should).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PeterDonis and Ibix
Reggid said:
So the proper time to fall down to some Schwarzschild coordinate ##r<r_0## is
\tau (r)=-\sqrt{\frac{r_0}{r_S}}\int_{r_0}^{r}\mathrm{d}r^\prime\,\sqrt{\frac{r^\prime}{r_0-r^\prime}}=\sqrt{\frac{r_0}{r_S}}\biggl(\sqrt{r(r_0-r)}+r_0\cosh ^{-1}\Bigl(\sqrt{\frac{r}{r_0}}\Bigr)\biggr)\;.
From this result one can see that the proper time to reach the event horizon ##\tau(r=r_S)## is finite.

I'm not sure this integral is good.

##\cosh^{-1}(x)## is only real valued if x>1, but ##r/r_0## is <1

The equation to be integrated passes the sanity check that ##\frac{dr}{d\tau} = \sqrt{E^2 - 1 + 2M/r} = \sqrt{E^2-1 + r_s/r}## for some constant E, but I've got my doubts about the integration process.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Reggid
pervect said:
I'm not sure this integral is good.

cosh−1⁡(x) is only real valued if x>1, but r/r0 is <1

The equation to be integrated passes the sanity check that drdτ=E2−1+2M/r=E2−1+rs/r for some constant E, but I've got my doubts about the integration process.

That's because it should be a ##\cos^{−1}##, not a ##\cosh^{−1}##.

Sorry for the typo (and thanks for finding it)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
844
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
3K
  • · Replies 45 ·
2
Replies
45
Views
4K