Proving Constant Sequence of Positive Integers Starting with n

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a sequence defined by a positive integer n, where the sequence is constructed based on divisibility conditions. Participants are tasked with proving that this sequence eventually becomes constant. The conversation includes attempts at proof, corrections, and references to mathematical competitions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant defines a sequence based on a positive integer n and provides an example, seeking a proof that the sequence becomes constant.
  • Another participant expresses interest in the origin of the problem, indicating it is from the USA Mathematics Olympiad.
  • A participant attempts a proof, suggesting that if the sum of the sequence terms equals ck for some c < k, then the sequence converges.
  • Another participant challenges the proof, arguing that n is fixed and cannot be chosen arbitrarily, suggesting a simpler approach is sufficient.
  • A later reply acknowledges the correction and reflects on a mistake made in the proof's negation, indicating a misunderstanding of the variables involved.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of the least common multiple related to the sequence and suggests a potential proof but indicates the need for further thought.
  • Several participants share their enjoyment of the problem and its connection to mathematical competitions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the proposed proof and the correct approach to the problem. There is no consensus on the proof's correctness, and multiple interpretations of the problem and its requirements are present.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in the proof regarding fixed versus variable parameters, and there are unresolved mathematical steps in the proposed arguments.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in mathematical problem-solving, particularly in the context of sequences and divisibility, as well as those preparing for mathematics competitions.

Feldoh
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Let [itex]n[/itex] be a positive integer. Define a sequence by setting [itex]a_1 = n[/itex] and, for each [itex]k > 1[/itex], letting [itex]a_k[/itex] be the unique integer in the range [tex]0 \le a_k \le k-1[/itex] for which [itex]\displaystyle a_1 + a_2 + \cdots + a_k[/itex] is divisible by [itex]k[/itex]. For instance, when [itex]n = 9[/itex] the obtained sequence is [itex]\displaystyle 9, 1, 2, 0, 3, 3, 3, \ldots[/itex]. Prove that for any n the sequence [itex]\displaystyle a_1, a_2, a_3, \ldots[/itex] eventually becomes constant.[/tex]
 
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that's cool, where'd you find this?
 
Thanks, that was fun! I too would like to know where you found this problem!

Here is my attempt at a solution:

It is clear that once [tex]{\sum}^k_{i=1}{a_i}=ck[/tex] for some c<k, subsequent terms in the sequence simply require additional c's to be added to them. Thus, we need to prove that for any starting n, there exists a k such that [tex]{\sum}^k_{i=1}{a_i}=ck[/tex] for some c<k.

Assume not. That is, [tex]\forall{n}[/tex] and [tex]\forall{k}[/tex] (where n and k are positive integers), [tex]{\sum}^k_{i=1}{a_i}=Ck[/tex] for some [tex]C\geq{k}[/tex].

Then we have

[tex]{k}^{2}\leq{Ck}=n+{a_2}+{a_3}+...+{a_k}\leq{n+1+2+...+(k-1)}={n+\frac{k(k+1)}{2}}=\frac{2n+k^{2}-k}{2}}[/tex]

So by letting [tex]{n}\geq{\frac{k^{2}+k}{2}}[/tex] for an arbitrary k, we derive a contradiction, for the sequence starting with n converges by the kth term. This completes the proof.



Is this correct?
 
There is one flaw in the proof, mainly I think to do with how you've written it: n is fixed, you can't choose n; it doesn't make sense to say "let n be greater than (k^2+k)/2 for an arbitrary k".

It is also an unnecessary proof by contradiction. It suffices to note that given any n then for k sufficiently large n + k(k-1)/2 is less than k^2.
 
Aaah, I see what you mean. Thanks for the correction!
 
haha, that's a usa math olympiad question. ah, reminds me of the good old days. looking forward to putnam in college
 
Feldoh said:
Let [itex]n[/itex] be a positive integer. Define a sequence by setting [itex]a_1 = n[/itex] and, for each [itex]k > 1[/itex], letting [itex]a_k[/itex] be the unique integer in the range [tex]0 \le a_k \le k-1[/itex] for which [itex]\displaystyle a_1 + a_2 + \cdots + a_k[/itex] is divisible by [itex]k[/itex]. For instance, when [itex]n = 9[/itex] the obtained sequence is [itex]\displaystyle 9, 1, 2, 0, 3, 3, 3, \ldots[/itex]. Prove that for any n the sequence [itex]\displaystyle a_1, a_2, a_3, \ldots[/itex] eventually becomes constant.[/tex]
[tex] define A(n) to be the least common multiple of the set {1,2,3...n} <br /> A(n) = {1,2,6,12,60,420,...}<br /> I noticed that if [tex]A_{m-1} < n \le A_{m}[/tex] then [tex]{\sum}^k_{i=1}{a_i} \geq \frac{kA_{m}}{m}[/tex] and [tex]a_{i}[/tex] converges to [tex]\frac{A_{m}}{m}[/tex] by the value of k equal to m. I thought I had a proof but need to come back to this later.[/tex]
 
matticus said:
that's cool, where'd you find this?

It's actually from 2007 USA Mathematics Olympiad.

I found them here the solutions are there too. I had a lot of fun with the first one so I though I'd post it :biggrin:
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Wiki/index.php/2007_USAMO
 
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matt grime said:
There is one flaw in the proof, mainly I think to do with how you've written it: n is fixed, you can't choose n; it doesn't make sense to say "let n be greater than (k^2+k)/2 for an arbitrary k".

It is also an unnecessary proof by contradiction. It suffices to note that given any n then for k sufficiently large n + k(k-1)/2 is less than k^2.

As I was falling asleep just now, this problem popped into my head, and I realized that I made an extremely stupid error, and if I had not made that error, I would have never made the mistake you pointed out (and I would have, presumably, had a wholly correct proof).

The error? I stated the negation incorrectly...I said "for all n" when I should have said "there exists an n". What a silly mistake. Oh well, its summer, I need to get these bloopers out of my system before the semester begins :rolleyes:
 
  • #10
abelian jeff said:
The error? I stated the negation incorrectly...I said "for all n" when I should have said "there exists an n".

No you shouldn't. n is given to you in the question. k is what you play with.
 
  • #11
Yes, it turns out that all you need to work with is the k. However, I said this:

Assume not. That is, [tex]\forall{n}[/tex] and [tex]\forall{k}[/tex] (where n and k are positive integers), [tex]{\sum}^k_{i=1}{a_i}=Ck[/tex] for some [tex]C\geq{k}[/tex].

That is clearly incorrect.
 

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