Proving/disproving vaccine related injuries

[mktsgm]

TL;DR Summary

In case of any (supposed) vaccine related deaths and injuries, how do the investigators prove or disprove the real cause is vaccine or not?

There is a controversy world over, over the vaccine related (or so assumed) deaths and injuries.

Suppose a person dies within a few days after vaccination, a doubt may arise in everyone, if the vaccine had induced the death or not.

To prove or disprove the complication of vaccine as the real cause for the death, some evidence must be found at the autopsy table.

Precisely what changes in the body (like presence of something or absence of something), the investigators are looking for, in case of a supposedly vaccine related death. How do they conclude that the real cause of death is vaccine or not?

Similarly for any supposedly vaccine related injury àlso, how do they conclude that the real cause is vaccine or not?

 

[Evo]

@mktsgm, when you make claims, you need to cite the source of your claims. There have been no substantiated Covid vaccine deaths.

Norway reported deaths among elderly people with serious underlying health conditions following administration of the Pfizer-BioNTech shot, but a review by the World Health Organization found no evidence of a connection to the vaccine.

Have there been deaths elsewhere?
In Germany, where more than 800,000 people have received their first of two doses of the the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, the Paul Ehrlich Institute has investigated at least seven cases of elderly people dying shortly after vaccination. In its report, it said the deaths were probably due to the patients’ https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/newsroom-en/dossiers/safety-reports/safety-report-27-december-10-january-2020.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 including carcinomas, kidney deficiencies and Alzheimer’s, not the inoculation. Millions of doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine have been administered in the U.S., U.K. and some other countries with no deaths reported due to the vaccine

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ut-vaccine-related-deaths-allergies-quicktake

 

[mktsgm]

Precisely that is the purport of my question.

I am not raising any claims. I want to know the scientific way or method to investigate into it.

When someone blames the vaccine for any injury or death, how do the investigators prove it is not the cause?

Will there be any reliable tell-tale evidence in the body, if so what it is?

This is what my question is about.

 

[Vanadium 50]

At age 75, the average life expectancy is 12 years, or 4400 days. 800,000 people (interestingly less than 10% of the 75+ population) would expect to have 180 deaths per day. And you're worried about seven?

 

[mktsgm]

At age 75, the average life expectancy is 12 years, or 4400 days. 800,000 people (interestingly less than 10% of the 75+ population) would expect to have 180 deaths per day. And you're worried about seven?

I repeat, 'worrying' is not my intention.

I just want to know/understand the scientific method to prove or disprove an allegation.

That's all.

 

[russ_watters]

I am not raising any claims.

Yes, you are:

There is a controversy world over, over the vaccine related (or so assumed) deaths and injuries.

That's a claim. Where is this controversy? I haven't heard of it. Please provide a reliable source that substantiates your claim that this controversy exists. E.G.; that claims the vaccine is causing injuries/deaths.

I just want to know/understand the scientific method to prove or disprove an allegation.

You can't disprove something that doesn't exist.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Here is a link from the CDC. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html

The link contains some examples, and will point you in the direction of further reading.

The Cutter Incident is a prime example of a vaccine causing death.

I think OP has a legitimate question, and some of the proceeding comments by some of the members here were not necessary. I would mention that Evo response was very informative, thanks.

 

[mktsgm]

Yes, you are:

That's a claim. Where is this controversy? I haven't heard of it. Please provide a reliable source that substantiates your claim that this controversy exists. E.G.; that claims the vaccine is causing injuries/deaths.

You can't disprove something that doesn't exist.

I was reading the article from Wikipedia "National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program"

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services set up the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) in 1988 to compensate individuals and families of individuals injured by covered childhood vaccines - From Wikipedia

The same Wikipedia article goes on to state that there were many claims of vaccine injuries to date and out of these claims, some have been compensated and others rejected by the program.

I am not asking here 'how the vaccines cause those injuries!' That is not my question.

My actual question is, how do they assess and determine the injury? All I want to know is the scientific background to this assessment.

I do read newspapers and watch television news about vaccines. I keep hearing this term frequently. I try to find information from NCBI articles and other scientific websites. I couldn't get clear cut answers.

But, I wonder how to respond to someone who denies they are non-existent.

 

[Evo]

I do read newspapers and watch television news about vaccines. I keep hearing this term frequently. I try to find information from NCBI articles and other scientific websites. I couldn't get clear cut answers.

I understand what you are asking we just recently had the same thread asking how and who determines the cause of death, what the coroner states as cause of death on the death certificate.

In the cases I cited, due to old age and other diseases and illnesses, some terminal, so the Covid vaccine may or may not have contributed to the death.

I think reading the comments in this thread about identifying the "cause of death" may be helpful.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-is-the-cause-of-death.996483/

 

[Laroxe]

Its not easy, partly because serious adverse events are so uncommon

There were about two claims of injury for every one million doses of all vaccines distributed in the United States from 2006 through 2017.

There is lots of useful information in the article at:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/health/vaccine-injury-claims.html
there is a link to one of the tools they use with common vaccines

https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/vaccine-injury-table.pdf

The CDC has information on vaccine safety with lots of links, its a big site with lots of information

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/research/index.html

and there is the vaers system that helps to identify patterns etc that may need investigating.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.htmlThis is a useful article;
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216824/

 

[russ_watters]

The Cutter Incident is a prime example of a vaccine causing death.

I think OP has a legitimate question, and some of the proceeding comments by some of the members here were not necessary.

You seem to be making an assumption that the Cutter Incident has some relevance to the COVID vaccine(otherwise, why bring it up?). From my reading, it doesn't, since that incident was a result of injecting people with a "live" polio virus. So can you explain why in that context the OP's question is legitimate and the preceding comments are overly harsh? Are you suggesting that people who get the COVID vaccine might die of polio?

 

[russ_watters]

I was reading the article from Wikipedia "National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program"

That article does not mention the COVID vaccine.

You made a claim that people are claiming the COVID vaccines kill people. Are you retracting this claim? Because you don't seem to be inclined to substantiate it

I am not asking here 'how the vaccines cause those injuries!' That is not my question.

My actual question is, how do they assess and determine the injury? All I want to know is the scientific background to this assessment.

When someone dies, and someone wants to look into it, a pathologist investigates the cause of death by doing blood tests and an autopsy. There's a thousand different ways people can die.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

You seem to be making an assumption that the Cutter Incident has some relevance to the COVID vaccine(otherwise, why bring it up?). From my reading, it doesn't, since that incident was a result of injecting people with a "live" polio virus. So can you explain why in that context the OP's question is legitimate and the preceding comments are overly harsh? Are you suggesting that people who get the COVID vaccine might die of polio?

I did not make such an assumption. Now you are reaching. I gave him a specific point in history where it was found out that a vaccination caused death. Moreover, in that link I gave the op there are other examples. Which lead to further reading so that he is able to figure out the answer to his question at the level he deems satisfactory.

Now, you are taking this extremely personal...

 

[russ_watters]

I did not make such an assumption. Now you are reaching. I gave him a specific point in history where it was found out that a vaccination caused death...

Now, you are taking this extremely personal...

I'm not getting personal - I'm asking for you to explain what the relevance if your post/source is. Because I'm not seeing it. I'll be explicit about my position: your example is completely irrelevant because it is of a completely different vaccine technology than what is being used for COVID.

 

[chemisttree]

I think he is asking something like, “given a death soon after a vaccine is administered, what postmortem evidence would be sufficient to prove the vaccination as the cause?”
Here is a reference for how that is done. It seems to take many years of research, unfortunately.

 

[mktsgm]

I think he is asking something like, “given a death soon after a vaccine is administered, what postmortem evidence would be sufficient to prove the vaccination as the cause?”
Here is a reference for how that is done. It seems to take many years of research, unfortunately.

Precisely this is my question.

Thanks for your reference and I will go through the material.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

I'm not getting personal - I'm asking for you to explain what the relevance if your post/source is. Because I'm not seeing it. I'll be explicit about my position: your example is completely irrelevant because it is of a completely different vaccine technology than what is being used for COVID.

The technology aspect has nothing to do with my response. Nor did I mention it did, nor can it be assumed that the technology is the same. From clicking on that link, the OP can view historical examples, look to see how the incidents were researched, handled, what laws/ governing bodies/ or process (at least in the US) were created and/or changed as a result to these incidents. Which would lead to a historical trend, on how the US MAY deal with issues arising from the Covid vaccination, if any.

My initial response was not a direct answer, but rather a means for the OP to figure out an answer that would answer his question at a level he deems sufficient. I believe that people who post here have the intellectual capacity to answer a personal question without being spoon-fed answers...

 

[Laroxe]

To be fair its not an easy question to answer, something that is often reflected in the composition of the review groups. The answers to these investigations often have to go beyond establishing the cause of death, the Cutter incident is a case in point, the vaccine technology wasn't the problem, it was a mistake in the manufacturing process and this lead to significant changes to prevent this happening again. This isn't an issue peculiar to vaccines, consider the number of people who have died due to problems in food manufacture.
It would be possible to construct a list of issues that might inform the death of an individual informed by pathology but really this might be very limited. You would need information from groups of various sizes to investigate process issues, production issues, effects of age, gender, CoMorbidities and new research might be needed.
Really Covid 19 has highlighted a whole range of new problems that have rarely been considered before, simply because we didn't know about them. This means the investigations can be far more informed and the results incorporated into future developments. Many countries have systems in place that pay compensation on any credible claim or explicitly bias the findings of inquiries to the claimants, they frequently don't need to "prove" the vaccine caused harm. These recognise that getting such proof can be difficult and that the information gained in investigating adverse events can be more valuable than a few overpayments on claims.

 

[ChinleShale]

You can't disprove something that doesn't exist.

The question was about a general methodology. See Post #18. Although I suppose you would demand scientific papers to back the explanation in Post#18.