Proving that a ring is non a PID

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving that the ring $$R=\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-13}]$$ is not a principal ideal domain (PID). Participants explore various properties of ideals generated by primes in $$\mathbb{N$$ and integers of the form $$a^2+13b^2$$, addressing specific proofs and implications related to the structure of the ring.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if $$P$$ is principal, then $$p$$ must be expressible as $$A^2+13B^2$$ for some integers $$A$$ and $$B$$.
  • Others argue that if $$p$$ divides an integer of the form $$a^2+13b^2$$, then the ideal $$P$$ generated by $$p$$ and $$a+b\sqrt{-13}$$ is not principal.
  • A later reply questions the necessity of point 3) in the proof, suggesting it may not be needed for establishing that the ideal is non-principal.
  • Participants discuss the implications of choosing specific primes, noting that primes $$p=2$$ and $$p=13$$ are excluded from consideration due to the breakdown of certain assumptions in the proofs.
  • One participant provides an example using $$p=11$$, which is not of the form $$A^2+13B^2$$, to illustrate the non-principal nature of the ideal generated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the structure of the proofs and the implications regarding the non-principal nature of the ideal, but there is some disagreement about the necessity of certain points in the proof and the implications of specific prime choices.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the assumption that $$p^2$$ does not divide $$a^2+13b^2$$, which may not hold for primes $$p=2$$ and $$p=13$$, potentially affecting the validity of certain arguments.

pantboio
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Let $$R=\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-13}]$$, let $$p$$ be a prime in $$\mathbb{N}$$, $$p\neq 2,13$$. Suppose that $$p$$ divides an integer of the form $$a^2+13b^2$$, with $$a,b$$ integers and coprime. Let $$P=(p,a+b\sqrt{-13})$$ be the ideal generated in $$R$$ by $$p$$ and $$a+b\sqrt{-13}$$ and let $$\overline{P}=(p,a-b\sqrt{-13})$$.

1)Prove that $$P\cdot\overline{P}=pR$$

2)Prove that if $$P$$ is principal then $$p=A^2+13B^2$$ for some $$A,B$$ integers

3) Prove that if $$p=a^2+13b^2$$ then $$P$$ is principal

4) Deduce that $$\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-13}]$$ is not a PIDI have a proof of point 1). Indeed it is easily seen that $$P\cdot\overline{P}$$ can be generated by $$p^2,p(a\pm b\sqrt{-13}),a^2+13b^2$$, all elements of $$pR$$. Conversely, i proved that we may always suppose, without loss of generality, that $$p^2$$ does not divide $$a^2+13b^2$$ hence $$p=\gcd(p^2,a^2+13b^2)$$, and this last fact implies that $$p$$ can be expressed as $$\mathbb{Z}$$-linear combination of $$p^2$$ and $$a^2+13b^2$$, both elements of $$P\cdot\overline{P}$$ so that we get the inclusion $$pR\subseteq P\cdot\overline{P}$$.

For the other points, any help would be appreciated
 
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pantboio said:
Let $$R=\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-13}]$$, let $$p$$ be a prime in $$\mathbb{N}$$, $$p\neq 2,13$$. Suppose that $$p$$ divides an integer of the form $$a^2+13b^2$$, with $$a,b$$ integers and coprime. Let $$P=(p,a+b\sqrt{-13})$$ be the ideal generated in $$R$$ by $$p$$ and $$a+b\sqrt{-13}$$ and let $$\overline{P}=(p,a-b\sqrt{-13})$$.

1)Prove that $$P\cdot\overline{P}=pR$$

2)Prove that if $$P$$ is principal then $$p=A^2+13B^2$$ for some $$A,B$$ integers

3) Prove that if $$p=a^2+13b^2$$ then $$P$$ is principal

4) Deduce that $$\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-13}]$$ is not a PIDI have a proof of point 1). Indeed it is easily seen that $$P\cdot\overline{P}$$ can be generated by $$p^2,p(a\pm b\sqrt{-13}),a^2+13b^2$$, all elements of $$pR$$. Conversely, i proved that we may always suppose, without loss of generality, that $$p^2$$ does not divide $$a^2+13b^2$$ hence $$p=\gcd(p^2,a^2+13b^2)$$, and this last fact implies that $$p$$ can be expressed as $$\mathbb{Z}$$-linear combination of $$p^2$$ and $$a^2+13b^2$$, both elements of $$P\cdot\overline{P}$$ so that we get the inclusion $$pR\subseteq P\cdot\overline{P}$$.

For the other points, any help would be appreciated
For 2), suppose that $P$ is principal, say $P = (A+B\sqrt{-13})$, for some $A,\;B\in\mathbb{Z}$. Then $\overline{P} = (A-B\sqrt{-13})$, and $P\cdot\overline{P} = (A^2+13B^2)$. But $p\in P\cdot\overline{P}$ (by (1)), and so $p$ is a multiple of $A^2+13B^2$. Now use that fact that $p$ is prime in $\mathbb{Z}$ to deduce that $p=A^2+13B^2$.

For 3), if $p=a^2+13b^2 = (a+b\sqrt{-13})(a-b\sqrt{-13})$, then clearly $P = (a+b\sqrt{-13})$, which is principal.

For 4), you just need to find a prime $p$ in $\mathbb{Z}$ which is not of the form $a^2+13b^2$, but which has a multiple of that form (try $p=11$). Then by (1) and (2) $(p,a+b\sqrt{-13})$ is not principal.
 
Opalg said:
For 2), suppose that $P$ is principal, say $P = (A+B\sqrt{-13})$, for some $A,\;B\in\mathbb{Z}$. Then $\overline{P} = (A-B\sqrt{-13})$, and $P\cdot\overline{P} = (A^2+13B^2)$. But $p\in P\cdot\overline{P}$ (by (1)), and so $p$ is a multiple of $A^2+13B^2$. Now use that fact that $p$ is prime in $\mathbb{Z}$ to deduce that $p=A^2+13B^2$.

For 3), if $p=a^2+13b^2 = (a+b\sqrt{-13})(a-b\sqrt{-13})$, then clearly $P = (a+b\sqrt{-13})$, which is principal.

For 4), you just need to find a prime $p$ in $\mathbb{Z}$ which is not of the form $a^2+13b^2$, but which has a multiple of that form (try $p=11$). Then by (1) and (2) $(p,a+b\sqrt{-13})$ is not principal.
Almost all is clear now for me, thanks. According to your suggestion, i take the prime $$p=11$$, which is not of the form $$A^2+13\cdot B^2$$, but has a multiple, namely its square $$121$$ such that $$121=2^2+13\cdot 3^2$$ so that the ideal $$(11,2+3\sqrt{-13})$$ is not principal, thanks to 2). There are left only few questions I summarize as follows:

1) What is the role played by point 3) in all this?? I mean, I've used only 2) to state that the ideal is non-principal...?

2) Why (in the book where i found this exercise) are we prevented from taking $$p=2,13$$?
 
pantboio said:
1) What is the role played by point 3) in all this?? I mean, I've used only 2) to state that the ideal is non-principal...?
As far as I can see, (3) is not actually needed for the rest of the question. I suppose it is just there for its intrinsic interest. :confused:

pantboio said:
2) Why (in the book where i found this exercise) are we prevented from taking $$p=2,13$$?
In your proof of (1), you said "we may always suppose, without loss of generality, that $p^2$ does not divide $a^2+13b^2$".
You may find that supposition is not valid if $p=2$ or $13$.
 

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