Proving that convexity implies second order derivative being positive

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter hmparticle9
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Calculus
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between convexity of a function and the implications for its second derivative, specifically whether convexity implies that the second derivative is positive. Participants explore various approaches to proving this concept, including the use of limits and the properties of derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an initial proof attempt based on the definition of convexity and the intermediate value theorem, aiming to show that if a function is convex, then its first derivative is increasing.
  • Another participant questions the choice of limit in the proof, suggesting an alternative approach by letting the difference between points approach zero instead of the parameter lambda.
  • A later reply expresses doubt about the correctness of the initial proof and acknowledges the need to show that the first derivative is greater for larger inputs.
  • Another participant builds on this by suggesting that if one lets a point tend towards another, it implies a relationship between the derivatives at those points, but questions if this is sufficient for the proof.
  • Further, a participant proposes a function to analyze the relationship between the derivatives at the endpoints of an interval, suggesting that the signs of the derivatives can be inferred from the properties of this function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the proof or the implications of convexity on the second derivative. There are multiple competing views and approaches discussed, with some participants expressing uncertainty about the correctness of their arguments.

Contextual Notes

Participants express limitations in their proofs, including the need for clearer definitions and the handling of limits. There is also a recognition that the assumptions made in their arguments may not fully support the conclusions they aim to reach.

hmparticle9
Messages
157
Reaction score
26
There are probably loads of proofs of this online, but I do not want to cheat. Here is my attempt:

Convexity says that
$$f(\lambda a + (1-\lambda)b) \leq \lambda f(a) + (1-\lambda) f(b)$$
$$f(b + \lambda(a-b)) \leq f(b) + \lambda (f(a) - f(b))$$

We know from the intermediate value theorem that there exists a ##c \in (b,a)## such that
$$\frac{f(a) - f(b)}{a-b} = f'(c).$$

Hence
$$f(b + \lambda(a-b)) \leq f(b) + \lambda (a - b) f'(c))$$
$$\frac{f(b + \lambda(a-b)) - f(b)}{\lambda(a-b)} \leq f'(c))$$
taking the limit ##\lambda \rightarrow 0##
$$f'(b) \leq f'(c)$$

This is not enough. I need to show that the above holds for all ##c##. I have shown that there exists one such c. Could I have some hints please? What I am getting at is that a function ##f## such that ##f''(x)>0## for all ##x## has the property that ##f'(x) > f'(y)## if ##x>y##
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
hmparticle9 said:
taking the limit ##\lambda \rightarrow 0##
Why do you take the limit ##\lambda \rightarrow 0##, instead of letting the difference ##h \equiv b-a## go to zero?
 
What difference would that make?
 
I just realized that my proof is even more wrong. I need to show that ##f'(x) > f'(y)## for ##x > y##. Sorry guys. I am well off.
 
I think I understand where you are coming from now. If we let ##a## tend to ##b## then since ##c## is in ##(b,a)## we must have ##f'(b) < f'(c)##. But is that enough?
 
We can say
$$f'(b) < f'(b+\epsilon) < f'(b+2\epsilon) < ... < f'(c)$$
for some ##b < c##.
 
hmparticle9 said:
There are probably loads of proofs of this online, but I do not want to cheat. Here is my attempt:

Convexity says that
$$f(\lambda a + (1-\lambda)b) \leq \lambda f(a) + (1-\lambda) f(b)$$
$$f(b + \lambda(a-b)) \leq f(b) + \lambda (f(a) - f(b))$$

It's a bit confusing to take ##b < a##; usually we have ##a < b##.

My approach would be to define $$
g : [0,1]\to\mathbb{R} : x \mapsto f(b) + x(f(a) - f(b)) - f(b+ x(a - b)) \geq 0.$$ Now ##g(0) = g(1) = 0## and the constraint on the sign of ##g## allows you to say something about the signs of ##g'(0)## and ##g'(1)##, and hence about ##f'(b)## and ##f'(a)##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: bhobba

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K