Proving the Existence of a Future

[ZapperZ]

Goodness, Zapper! *MICHIO KAKU* says so! Isn't that good enough for you?

Nope.

While we respect these great physicists, we don't revere them like gods where their words are commandments. I disagree with many things other important physicists have said.

Furthermore, there is a difference between their physics work and their pop-science work. Many people misinterpret things that they have written. Einstein's often quoted "Imagination is more important than knowledge" is a prime example. People often forgot who he was intending that statement too, and crackpots often use that as justification for them to promote their own ideas without having the need to study any physics.

So don't get me started on this...

Zz.

 

[RetardedBastard]

Nope.

While we respect these great physicists, we don't revere them like gods where their words are commandments. I disagree with many things other important physicists have said.

Wow, I really had no idea that you respected Michio Kaku so much to bestow him a "great physicists" crown! It just took you this long to say it.

Furthermore, there is a difference between their physics work and their pop-science work. Many people misinterpret things that they have written.

I think you are being too hard on the interested laymen. It's the physics community that takes the brunt of the blame, I think.
People without the proper physics background cannot tell when a well-known physicist like Kaku with all the proper credentials tells them about the wonders of accepted, and counter-intuitive, science and in the next sentence, the same physicist tells them the wonders of another theory, even more breathtaking than QM or GR, but neglects to tell them that it's not accepted science. You can't blame them for being ignorant... they are, afterall, trying to learn... and Kaku is their teacher. Where is J. Sixpack supposed to draw the line between QM and strings? Now, do you think if an organization like the APS sent a letter to the people who are incharge of the Discovery Channel about how *&^% their talking head is, don't you think they would listen? I mean, either it's crap or it isn't. Why doesn't a prominent physics organization just come out one way or the other? Maybe Kaku would stop selling pipe dreams when he isn't being booked on tv shows anymore. But as long as he's teaching physics to a guy with tv, a guy who is TRYING to learn, what can he do?

Einstein's often quoted "Imagination is more important than knowledge" is a prime example. People often forgot who he was intending that statement too, and crackpots often use that as justification for them to promote their own ideas without having the need to study any physics.

Zz.

Yeah, crackpots needs to learn physics. Scientific advances aren't made by people who don't value knowledge. But crackpots are totally different from some casual tv viewer who is receiving incorrect information about physics by a well known physicist, because unlike a crackpot, he's trying to learn.

 

[a2tha3]

A post to the original question

How can there be no proof of the future, if the present itself is not presented with some sort of danger? If the present is not in peril, then surely the future will come without any reasonable doubt. I guess there is the possibility of the peril coming in 1/100th of a second, and then everything obliterates to nothing...but the possibility is so low it shouldn't even be considered..

 

[Echart Tolle]

The Now - Past, Present and Future

A very bold follower of mine has quoted me in this present text and has asked me to comment upon the ideas put forward here.

All I can say is that this argument will never end... I do not say "will go on forever" as that implies a future for the argument to fold out into... where, simply, the argument, as we are also, is stuck within the present and cannot leave it.

The past that has been referred to as being necessary for creating one’s self is in actuality quite the opposite; one’s self is needed to create the past. And not so much one’s self, it is ones self's ego which leads him or her to believe that for this to be there must have once been a past, not recognising that in the so called "past" there was only this and nothing else but this. This is the same for our concept of "future", our egoic mindset states that for there to be us, there must have been a past, and for there to be a past, there must therefore be a future for ourselves to go into for when the present becomes the past. This though, can be easily shown for its absurdity.

Take our concept of energy for example, it is quite well known that energy cannot be created or destroyed but merely transformed from 1 state to another. Everything has energy, and I use the term 'has' very loosely, which means that nothing can be created or destroyed, showing that in the egoic "past" there is no more or less than in the egoic "future". Therefore, the present state can be shown to run between them, showing that what we define as future and past are just concepts created by our egoic mind to conceptualise the present moment. Instead of living in the moment that is now, our super ego* (*reference to "The Ego and The Id by Sigmund Freud) creates these ideas to allow us to function in society more easily. Without the ego to create such a falsity we would all be happier within ourselves, of course any argument against this is your super ego trying not to let go because its job is to make you fit into society, whereas we all know that when looking at society as a whole, it is generally not happy indeed.

I bid you all good day; in fact, I bid you all a good now!

Echart Tolle

 

[Mk]

(Don't feed the trolls!™)

 

[RetardedBastard]

I think this is the first time I've ever been spam'd by philosophy!

 

[RetardedBastard]

(Don't feed the trolls!™)

I think you misspelled his name!

 

[ZapperZ]

Wow, I really had no idea that you respected Michio Kaku so much to bestow him a "great physicists" crown! It just took you this long to say it.

No, I was being generic. If you've read the thread on Kaku in the GD forum, you would have seen clearly my opinion of him, which isn't very high.

I think you are being too hard on the interested laymen. It's the physics community that takes the brunt of the blame, I think.
People without the proper physics background cannot tell when a well-known physicist like Kaku with all the proper credentials tells them about the wonders of accepted, and counter-intuitive, science and in the next sentence, the same physicist tells them the wonders of another theory, even more breathtaking than QM or GR, but neglects to tell them that it's not accepted science. You can't blame them for being ignorant... they are, afterall, trying to learn... and Kaku is their teacher. Where is J. Sixpack supposed to draw the line between QM and strings? Now, do you think if an organization like the APS sent a letter to the people who are incharge of the Discovery Channel about how *&^% their talking head is, don't you think they would listen? I mean, either it's crap or it isn't. Why doesn't a prominent physics organization just come out one way or the other? Maybe Kaku would stop selling pipe dreams when he isn't being booked on tv shows anymore. But as long as he's teaching physics to a guy with tv, a guy who is TRYING to learn, what can he do?

Er.. you don't have to tell me this. I've always said that most of us here always have to come in and clean up after the mess he has created. And I lump "Elegant Universe" in the same basket.

Yeah, crackpots needs to learn physics. Scientific advances aren't made by people who don't value knowledge. But crackpots are totally different from some casual tv viewer who is receiving incorrect information about physics by a well known physicist, because unlike a crackpot, he's trying to learn.

But I actually don't mind the "casual tv viewer" learning from such programs. These people aren't watching these shows or reading the pop-science books because they want to come up with the "theory of everything", or something revolutionary since sliced cheese. Most people are aware that these are nothing more than some superficial information. It is when some of them are delusional enough to think that they've learned everything that they need is when things get messy.

BTW, you may want to read this thread that I posted a while back to see my stand on this

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=149923Zz.

 

[RetardedBastard]

Er.. you don't have to tell me this. I've always said that most of us here always have to come in and clean up after the mess he has created. And I lump "Elegant Universe" in the same basket.

I'm sorry to say this but, apparently, "most of us here" isn't enough. The cause against "baloney physics" needs biggers players (like the APS for exmaple) who are willing to make an unequivocal statement about the stuff that gets sensationalized on tv and gets passed as actual physics... because, we've all known for years and years that there are people in the popular media who do this. I think until that happens, and until those people/tv shows are publicly reprimanded by big reputable, established organizations, "most of us here" will feel like we're fighting a loosing battle.

But I actually don't mind the "casual tv viewer" learning from such programs. These people aren't watching these shows or reading the pop-science books because they want to come up with the "theory of everything", or something revolutionary since sliced cheese. Most people are aware that these are nothing more than some superficial information. It is when some of them are delusional enough to think that they've learned everything that they need is when things get messy.

BTW, you may want to read this thread that I posted a while back to see my stand on this

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=149923Zz.

I agree with that. However, if someone is comming in this forum and reading your post, then they're way past the casual tv viewer stage... the people most likely to benefit from your post will never see it -- the majority of tv viewership. Therefore, it's up to reputable organizations like the APS to squach the nonsense talking heads so that the 99% of the casual tv viewers who never make it to your post will not be misinformed. In other words, I think it's better to prevent them going on tv, than to cleap up their mess.

 

[ZapperZ]

But at some point, nothing you can say or do will prevent these crackpots from doing what they want to do. History has shown this to be true no matter the circumstances. Eventually, one should one not try to save them from themselves. Like right now. People who believe everything they read out of Wikipedia deserve everything they get.

Zz.

 

[rewebster]

Nope.

While we respect these great physicists, we don't revere them like gods where their words are commandments. I disagree with many things other important physicists have said.

Furthermore, there is a difference between their physics work and their pop-science work. Many people misinterpret things that they have written. Einstein's often quoted "Imagination is more important than knowledge" is a prime example. People often forgot who he was intending that statement too, and crackpots often use that as justification for them to promote their own ideas without having the need to study any physics.

So don't get me started on this...

Zz.

I have to agree this once with Z about Machu Picchu, Mako Kaku, or however his name is spelled.

And as far as the 'imagination' statement, Z and I had a discussion on that once a long time ago:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=168522&page=3

I think he ended up agreeing with me (in his own way :) ) that the quote is incomplete when viewed as only 'part' of it, and CAN be easily misunderstood.

I think 'proof of the future' can be viewed as that 'one second into the future', is 'now', 'the present' in all circumstances so far; and will be the past (after about 2 seconds).

 

[rewebster]

Anybody who is not fully rebelling against this idea and has some wanting to know more should read my book "The Power of Now" where this is all explained fully to a degree where the egoic mind can be completely ignored allowing yourself to be set free from its social bounds.
I bid you all good day; in fact, I bid you all a good now!

Echart Tolle

Gee, that almost sounds like its fact rather than opinion---hmmmm

 

[baywax]

But at some point, nothing you can say or do will prevent these crackpots from doing what they want to do. History has shown this to be true no matter the circumstances. Eventually, one should one not try to save them from themselves. Like right now. People who believe everything they read out of Wikipedia deserve everything they get.

Zz.

This is great to have you here Zapper Z... (and everybody of course).

What am I doing wrong here?! Is there a definitive proof of the future? Or do I have to use my "Law of Attraction" DVD to explain probability/potential/uncertainty and quantum physics all in one foul swoop?

 

[rewebster]

What am I doing wrong here?! Is there a definitive proof of the future? Or do I have to use my "Law of Attraction" DVD to explain probability/potential/uncertainty and quantum physics all in one foul swoop?

what are you really looking for?----the future hasn't happened yet---

 

[ZapperZ]

This is great to have you here Zapper Z... (and everybody of course).

What am I doing wrong here?! Is there a definitive proof of the future? Or do I have to use my "Law of Attraction" DVD to explain probability/potential/uncertainty and quantum physics all in one foul swoop?

The problem here, as is the common case here in this sub-forum, is that the question itself is undefined, at least to me when I compare it to the questions I ask in physics. What does it mean to have "proof of the future"? What is meant as a "future" and in what form is there such a proof?

Note that something that is more well-defined, such as F=ma, has no "proof". One can say that there's and overwhelming and compelling evidence that it is valid (such as your house) when used within the region of its validity, but in the strictest sense, there is no "proof" for it the way you can come up with proofs in mathematics.

So think about it. If something that is so well-defined and so well-verified in physics does not actually have a "proof", what does that leave you with something less well-defined as "the future"? Does the fact that I can often predict, with uncanny accuracy, of what's going to occur in the future somehow is a "proof" that the future exist? I dunno. I have no idea what the criteria is to prove something like this. It isn't science.

Zz.

 

[baywax]

The problem here, as is the common case here in this sub-forum, is that the question itself is undefined, at least to me when I compare it to the questions I ask in physics. What does it mean to have "proof of the future"? What is meant as a "future" and in what form is there such a proof?

Note that something that is more well-defined, such as F=ma, has no "proof". One can say that there's and overwhelming and compelling evidence that it is valid (such as your house) when used within the region of its validity, but in the strictest sense, there is no "proof" for it the way you can come up with proofs in mathematics.

So think about it. If something that is so well-defined and so well-verified in physics does not actually have a "proof", what does that leave you with something less well-defined as "the future"? Does the fact that I can often predict, with uncanny accuracy, of what's going to occur in the future somehow is a "proof" that the future exist? I dunno. I have no idea what the criteria is to prove something like this. It isn't science.

Zz.

Agh... thanks Zapper Z... sorry to hear its not science.

How to more definitively ask the question... hmmmm

It should be as easy as proving 1+1 = 2. But I can only do that if the person I'm proving it to uses the same numerical value system.

As this thread progressed, from the initial idea, I realized that the question might be of some interest to the scientific community because so much of that work is based on the potential of a "future".

I wondered if the idea of "the future is now" might speed things up.

 

[rewebster]

A very bold follower of mine has quoted me in this present text and has asked me to comment upon the ideas put forward here.

All I can say is that this argument will never end... I do not say "will go on forever" as that implies a future for the argument to fold out into... where, simply, the argument, as we are also, is stuck within the present and cannot leave it.

The past that has been referred to as being necessary for creating one’s self is in actuality quite the opposite; one’s self is needed to create the past. And not so much one’s self, it is ones self's ego which leads him or her to believe that for this to be there must have once been a past, not recognising that in the so called "past" there was only this and nothing else but this. This is the same for our concept of "future", our egoic mindset states that for there to be us, there must have been a past, and for there to be a past, there must therefore be a future for ourselves to go into for when the present becomes the past. This though, can be easily shown for its absurdity.

Take our concept of energy for example, it is quite well known that energy cannot be created or destroyed but merely transformed from 1 state to another. Everything has energy, and I use the term 'has' very loosely, which means that nothing can be created or destroyed, showing that in the egoic "past" there is no more or less than in the egoic "future". Therefore, the present state can be shown to run between them, showing that what we define as future and past are just concepts created by our egoic mind to conceptualise the present moment. Instead of living in the moment that is now, our super ego* (*reference to "The Ego and The Id by Sigmund Freud) creates these ideas to allow us to function in society more easily. Without the ego to create such a falsity we would all be happier within ourselves, of course any argument against this is your super ego trying not to let go because its job is to make you fit into society, whereas we all know that when looking at society as a whole, it is generally not happy indeed.

I bid you all good day; in fact, I bid you all a good now!

Echart Tolle

I think a better title for his book would have been:

"Dianetics!-----PARAPHRASED!"​

---------------------------

One quote (paraphrased) from L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Dianetics, "If you want to get rich (make money, make a million), start your own religion."

 

[baywax]

(Don't feed the trolls!™)

:-)



The motivation for science is usually the hope of a better understanding of nature and a more efficient way to interact with nature. To achieve these goals science goes about using stringent methods of verification with the faith that there will be an understanding of nature reached at some point in the future. This is the motivation for this endeavor and its based on the idea that there is a future to begin with. Does this make science faith-based or is there really a future?

Another question is that when you look down a road in the direction your traveling are you seeing your future or are you seeing the present and calculating your relative position in the present?

 

[baywax]

I think a better title for his book would have been:

"Dianetics!-----PARAPHRASED!"​

---------------------------

One quote (paraphrased) from L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Dianetics, "If you want to get rich (make money, make a million), start your own religion."

Join the Once And Future Anti-Pragmatics. Only $29.99 down and 0% financing for the remainder.

 

[DaveC426913]

I've always said that most of us here always have to come in and clean up after the mess he has created. And I lump "Elegant Universe" in the same basket.

Really? Are you saying that Greene is considered a purveyor of "junky" science?