Proving the Largest Natural Number m for Divisibility of n^3-n

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the largest natural number m such that n^3 - n is divisible by m for all natural numbers n. Participants explore the properties of the expression n^3 - n and its divisibility by various factors.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants consider the factorization of n^3 - n and discuss potential divisors, including n(n^2 - 1) and its implications. There are inquiries about the largest proper divisor and whether half of n^3 - n could be the largest divisor. Some participants suggest using induction to prove properties of divisibility.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active with various lines of reasoning being explored. Some participants have proposed that 2 is a significant divisor, while others are questioning how to establish the largest divisor. There is a recognition that the problem may require a more explicit understanding of divisibility across all natural numbers.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of the problem's constraints, specifically that m must divide n^3 - n for all natural numbers n, which influences the approach to finding the largest m. There is also mention of the need to clarify the problem statement regarding the universal quantifier for n.

Punkyc7
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Find the largest natural number m such that n^3 -n is divisible by m for n element N. Prove your assertion.



How exactly do you begin this

im thinking the largest m could possible be is n^3 -n, but I am not sure.

To be divisible we know that

mk=n^3-n for some k
 
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Well, sure n^3-n divides n^3-n. But I doubt that's what they mean. I think they mean a proper divisor, i.e. m<n^3-n. What number LESS than n^3-n divides n^3-n and can you show it's the largest possible?
 
How can you factor [itex]n^3- n[/itex]?
 
n(n^2-1) is that this question was asking for?

And from there you induction on n^3-n and show that n^2 -1 is the largest number
 
Punkyc7 said:
n(n^2-1) is that this question was asking for?

And from there you induction on n^3-n and show that n^2 -1 is the largest number

Take n=3, what is the largest proper divisor of n3-n then?
 
would it be 12...which is not n^2-1
 
Punkyc7 said:
would it be 12...which is not n^2-1

But which is the half of n3-n. Can you show that the half is always the largest divisor??
 
I going to guess you can. So we assume that (n^3-n)/2 is the largest and we want to show

(n+1^3-n+1)/2 is the largest divisor of n+1^3-n+1
 
Punkyc7 said:
I going to guess you can. So we assume that (n^3-n)/2 is the largest and we want to show

(n+1^3-n+1)/2 is the largest divisor of n+1^3-n+1

Isn't it obvious that [itex]\frac{n^3-n}{2}[/itex] is the largest divisor?? The only thing you need to show is that 2 divides n3-n. That's what you need to show by induction.
 
  • #10
so we show that 2 divides when n is odd and when n is even.

Then we show 2 divides n+1^3-n+1?
 
  • #11
Punkyc7 said:
so we show that 2 divides when n is odd and when n is even.

Then we show 2 divides n+1^3-n+1?

Indeed, you must show that [itex](n+1)^3-(n+1)[/itex] is even when [itex]n^3-n[/itex] is.
 
  • #12
and do the same thing when its odd.

Now do I have to show that (n+1^3−n+1)/2 is the largest divisor of n+1^3-n+1, or do I just have to show two divides it.
 
  • #13
Hi Punkyc7! :smile:
Punkyc7 said:
Find the largest natural number m such that n^3 -n is divisible by m for n element N.

Doesn't it mean find the highest common factor of every value of n3 - n ? :confused:
 
  • #14
Hi tiny tim,

it should say for all n element N, I am going to edit that.


I can't edit it the edit button is gone so it should say

Find the largest natural number m such that n^3 -n is divisible by m for all n element N. Prove your assertion
 
  • #15
[itex]n^{3}-n=n(n^{2}-1)=(n-1)n(n+1)[/itex]
 
  • #16
ok, so how is knowing the roots helpful?
 
  • #17
Punkyc7 said:
ok, so how is knowing the roots helpful?

Say that we have the product n*(n+1). If n is divisible by two, is the product? If n is NOT divisible by two, is the product? (AKA is n*(n+1)/2 an integer for all even natural numbers n? How about all odd natural numbers n?)
 
  • #18
im going to say yes to the first part

yes for the second part because even numbers can be divided by 2

so it would be an integer for all even natural number

wouldnt it also be true for odd
 
  • #19
Punkyc7 said:
im going to say yes to the first part

yes for the second part because even numbers can be divided by 2

so it would be an integer for all even natural number

wouldnt it also be true for odd

Indeed. So if n(n+1)/2 is an integer for all natural numbers n, isn't (n-1)(n+1)n/2 also an integer for all natural numbers n?
 
  • #20
I want to say yes
 
  • #21
Punkyc7 said:
I want to say yes

All right, let's say you say yes. If so, then (n^3-n)/2 (which is the same as what we made before) is an integer for all natural numbers n, and all we need to do is prove it is the LARGEST possible factor.
 
  • #22
but how do you know its the largest, wasnt that just our guess
 
  • #23
Well, consider this. (n^3-n)/2 is obviously a factor of n^3-n. So therefore, n^3-n = (n^3-n)/2 * b for some OTHER factor b. And this factor is rather obvious, isn't it? (Not to mention, when factoring a number n, the largest a factor can be (other than the obvious n) is n/2. I think you'll have to PROVE that, though)
 
  • #24
wouldnt b=2 is that what you mean by obvious?

wait how would prove the next highest factor in n/2

im so confused
 
  • #25
(just got up :zzz: …)

i still think you're misunderstanding the question :redface:

2 is the highest common factor of all values of n2 + n

so what is the highest common factor of all values of n3 - n ?
 
  • #26
I don't know
n+1?

how would you even go about finding this out... do we check for odd and even



because we get
2k((2k)^2-1)
8k^3+12k^2+6k+1


does that mean that the highest factor is one because they don't share anything?
 
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  • #27
Punkyc7 said:
im not sure how we knew 2 is the highest common factor of all values of n^2 + n

what's the highest common factor of 112 + 11 and 132 + 13 ? :wink:
 
  • #28
so you just right down all the factors and see which ones they both share

i have it in a few minutes
 
  • #29
they both share 2
 
  • #30
ok, now 113 - 11 and 143 - 14 ? :wink:
 

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