Quantum decoherence and measurement

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of quantum decoherence and measurement in quantum mechanics, exploring their implications and the relationship between them. Participants express curiosity about the lack of coverage in standard textbooks and the varying interpretations of measurement, particularly in relation to unconscious observers and the measurement problem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes a lack of discussion on quantum decoherence and measurement in their textbooks, questioning the relationship between the two concepts.
  • Another participant suggests a book as a nice introduction to the topic, though no specific details are provided.
  • A third participant offers a contrarian perspective on decoherence, referencing Weinberg's text and arguing that decoherence does not resolve the measurement problem, particularly in relation to the Copenhagen interpretation and the many worlds interpretation.
  • Participants discuss two types of claims regarding unconscious observers making measurements: one traditional view that acknowledges the measurement problem and one newer view that may be mistaken or tied to specific interpretations like Many-Worlds or Bohmian mechanics.
  • References to various academic papers are provided to support the discussion on the measurement problem and interpretations of quantum mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of quantum decoherence and the validity of claims regarding unconscious observers in measurement. There is no consensus on whether these claims are correct or if they represent a misunderstanding of the measurement problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the unresolved nature of the measurement problem and the dependence on interpretations of quantum mechanics, indicating that the discussion is limited by the complexity of the concepts involved.

thegreenlaser
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I keep hearing about things like "quantum decoherence" and the notion that measurement doesn't need a conscious observer. However, I haven't really seen these topics discussed in any of the textbooks I've used (mostly on the level of Griffiths and higher). I haven't even seen a reference to "quantum decoherence" in a textbook, and measurement discussions don't usually seem to talk about what counts as a measurement in practise. Rather, they tend to focus on what happens when a measurement is performed. I don't know if the two concepts are even related, but where can I learn about this sort of thing? I'm guessing maybe Ballentine for the "what counts as a measurement" question, but he doesn't appear to cover decoherence.

Edit: I should probably clarify, since it might seem like I'm asking for an answer to the measurement problem. I realize the measurement problem isn't really resolved, but I frequently hear people saying confidently that (at least in practise) unconscious "observers" are able to perform measurements. I'm wondering if these people are wrong, or if they've learned something that I haven't.
 
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For a somewhat contrarian take on decoherence, see Weinberg in his grad-level text "Lectures on Quantum Mechanics",

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1107028728/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Weinberg said:
There seems to be a widespread impression that decoherence solves all obstacles to the class of interpretations of quantum mechanics which take seriously the dynamical assumptions of quantum mechanics as applied to everything, including measurement. My own opinion is that these interpretations, like the Copenhagen interpretation, remain unsatisfactory. ...

Statements of this sort about probabilities are predictions about how the state vectors evolve in time during measurements, so if measurement is really described by quantum mechanics, then we ought to be able to derive such formulas by applying the time-dependent Schrödinger equation to the case of repeated measurement. This not just a matter of intellectual tidiness, of wanting to reduce the postulates of physical theory to the minimum number needed. If the Born rule cannot be derived the time-dependent Schrödinger equation, then something else is needed, something outside the scope of quantum mechanics, and the many worlds interpretation thus shares the inadequacies of the Copenhagen interpretation. ...
 
thegreenlaser said:
Edit: I should probably clarify, since it might seem like I'm asking for an answer to the measurement problem. I realize the measurement problem isn't really resolved, but I frequently hear people saying confidently that (at least in practise) unconscious "observers" are able to perform measurements. I'm wondering if these people are wrong, or if they've learned something that I haven't.

There are two flavours of this sort of claim.

The first sort is traditional, and does not claim to solve the measurement problem. An example of this is found in Landau and LIfshitz's quantum mechanics textbook. They say that a classical measurement apparatus interacting with the quantum system makes a measurement. However, they still need someone to make the classical/quantum cut, and they note that there is a measurement problem - in their words - classical mechanics is not a less fundamental theory than quantum theory, because classical mechanics is needed to formulate quantum theory.

The second sort is new and mistaken (eg. Anderson, whose claim is described in http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0112095), or makes the claim within
(1) some version of Many-Worlds, in conjunction with the proposed derivation of the Born rule for Many-Worlds by Deutsch, and elaborated on by Wallace. Whether this is correct is still debated
(2) Bohmian mechanics, which is generally regarded as ok for non-relativistic quantum mechanics, but the extension to relativistic quantum mechanics is still being researched.

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0209123
Do we really understand quantum mechanics?
Franck Laloe

http://arxiv.org/abs/0712.0149
The Quantum Measurement Problem: State of Play
David Wallace
 

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