Quantum tunneling and the universe

[audioloop]

So what collapsed the wave-function?

you know what is a linear schrodinger equation and a non linear equation and what is a superposition ?

 

[Rational T]

you know what is a linear schrodinger equation and a non linear equation and what is a superposition ?

All I know, is that wave-function collapse is due to measurement/ observation. My question is, what could have possibly caused the wave-function of the universe to collapse while it was in a state of uncertainty? Thank you.

 

[audioloop]

All I know, is that wave-function is due to measurement/ observation. My is, what could have possibly caused the wave-function of to while it was in a of uncertainty? .

measurement/observation is in-herited from the Copenhagen interpretation
...The Copenhagen interpretation assumes a mysterious division between the microscopic world governed by quantum mechanics and a macroscopic world of apparatus and observers that obeys classical physics. During measurement the state vector of the microscopic system collapses in a probabilistic way to one of a number of classical states, in a way that is unexplained, and cannot be described by the time-dependent Schrodinger equation...cos in standard quantum mechanics schrodinger equation is linear i.e. ever in superposition,

and in the many world interpretation:...assumes that the state vector of the whole of any isolated system does not collapse, but evolves deterministically according to the time-dependent Schrodinger equation...

 

[Rational T]

measurement/observation is heredited from the Copenhagen interpretation.

...The Copenhagen interpretation assumes a mysterious division between the microscopic world governed by quantum mechanics and a macroscopic world of apparatus and observers that obeys classical physics. During measurement the state vector of the microscopic system collapses in a probabilistic way to one of a number of classical states, in a way that is unexplained, and cannot be described by the time-dependent Schrodinger equation...

cos in standard quantum mechanics schrodinger equation is linear i.e. ever in superposition,

and in the many world interpretation:

...assumes that the state vector of the whole of any isolated system does not collapse, but evolves deterministically according to the time-dependent Schrodinger equation...

Alexander Vilenkin's model of cosmic origins says the universe could have began acausally as a quantum tunneling event. If what you are saying is true, that only determinism can explain this, then this is contradictory. How can something deterministic explain an acausal event? Also, appealing to multiple universes is a violation of Parsimony...I think you see the problem here.

 

[Rational T]

measurement/observation is in-herited from the Copenhagen interpretation



...The Copenhagen interpretation assumes a mysterious division between the microscopic world governed by quantum mechanics and a macroscopic world of apparatus and observers that obeys classical physics. During measurement the state vector of the microscopic system collapses in a probabilistic way to one of a number of classical states, in a way that is unexplained, and cannot be described by the time-dependent Schrodinger equation...


cos in standard quantum mechanics schrodinger equation is linear i.e. ever in superposition,

and in the many world interpretation:


...assumes that the state vector of the whole of any isolated system does not collapse, but evolves deterministically according to the time-dependent Schrodinger equation...

If you cannot explain how the universe's wave-function collapsed without appealing to determinism and many worlds, then tunneling models are duds and explain nothing.

 

[audioloop]

Vilenkin's of cosmic says could have began acausally as a . If what you are saying is true, that only determinism can explain this, then this is contradictory. How can something deterministic explain an acausal ? Also, appealing to multiple universes is a violation of Parsimony...I think you see the problem here.

like you said, vilenkin...

i do not agree completely with him.

some time ago i asked him personally, why exist the universe and he answered "rather ask the dalai lama" and after
we laugh a while...

and respect to many world, i dislike.

 

[audioloop]

why you say determinism ?

 

[Rational T]

why you say determinism ?

"...assumes that the state vector of the whole of any isolated system does not collapse, but evolves deterministically according to the time-dependent Schrodinger equation..."

You said it. All I'm saying, is that it's simpler to assume an observer from the outside collapsed the wave-function of the universe, than to introduce many worlds to explain it. Many worlds seems like a violation of Parsimony and Occam's Razor, to try to avoid the conclusion that an observer caused the universal wave-function collapse. One observer is simply than many worlds.

 

[Rational T]

why you say determinism ?

My point is that quantum tunneling is presented as an acausal event by advocates like Vilenkin, this is impossible though because something must have caused the universal wave-function collapse. If you appeal to many worlds to solve the problem, then you violate Occam'z Razor.

 

[audioloop]

"...assumes that the vector of the whole of any isolated system does not , but evolves deterministically according to the time-dependent Schrodinger equation..."

You said it. All I'm saying, is that it's simpler to assume an observer from the collapsed the -function of , than to introduce many worlds to explain it. Many worlds seems like a violation of Parsimony and Occam's Razor, to try to avoid the conclusion that an observer caused the wave-function . One observer is simply than many worlds.

i dislike many worlds, i am no aduce from it.

 

[audioloop]

If you appeal to many worlds to solve the problem, then you violate Occam'z Razor.

not me.

in many world there is no collapse.

i advocate objective collapse models. i.e. nonlinear quantum mechanics.

 

[Rational T]

not me.

i dislike many worlds, i am no aduce from it.

So you agree that an observer must have collapsed the universal wave-function. Since you dislike the many worlds idea..

 

[audioloop]

So you agree that an observer must have collapsed the -function. Since you dislike the many worlds idea..

no observers, in objective collapse models there is no need of observers.

 

[Rational T]

no observers, in objective collapse models there is no need of observers.

So, are you saying that Alexander Vilenkin's model based on objective collapse? Also, if no observers are required, then what actually does collapse the wave-function?

 

[Chalnoth]

What external complex system could have interacted with the wave-function to cause it to collapse though?

It doesn't have to be external. It just needs enough disparate parts that are tightly-interacting to cause collapse. One way of thinking of this is to divide the wavefunction into two regions that are tightly-interacting. As long as each region has enough complexity, the other will be forced to effectively collapse.

 

[Rational T]

It doesn't have to be external. It just needs enough disparate parts that are tightly-interacting to cause collapse. One way of thinking of this is to divide the wavefunction into two regions that are tightly-interacting. As long as each region has enough complexity, the other will be forced to effectively collapse.

So basically, are you saying the wave-function of the universe self-collapsed? If so, how often does this really occur in the real world without external measurement being a necessary condition?

 

[Rational T]

It doesn't have to be external. It just needs enough disparate parts that are tightly-interacting to cause collapse. One way of thinking of this is to divide the wavefunction into two regions that are tightly-interacting. As long as each region has enough complexity, the other will be forced to effectively collapse.

Also, aren't quantum events contingent to space-time? Or, is it just as plausible for a quantum tunneling event to emerge from a state void of space-time? Thank you.

 

[Chalnoth]

Also, aren't quantum events contingent to space-time? Or, is it just as plausible for a quantum tunneling event to emerge from a state void of space-time? Thank you.

I think this is just an artifact of not knowing the correct theory of quantum gravity.

 

[Rational T]

Also, Alexander's model only works if the universe is closed:

"The only verifiable (in principle) prediction of the model is that the universe must be closed." - http://mukto-mona.net/science/physics/a_vilinkin/universe_from_nothing.pdf

However, the theory of inflation predicts the universe is flat:

"The current theoretical belief (because it is predicted by the theory of cosmic inflation) is that the universe is flat..." - http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question35.html

 

[Mark M]

Also, Alexander's model only works if the universe is closed:

"The only verifiable (in principle) prediction of the model is that the universe must be closed." - http://mukto-mona.net/science/physics/a_vilinkin/universe_from_nothing.pdf

However, the theory of inflation predicts the universe is flat:

"The current theoretical belief (because it is predicted by the theory of cosmic inflation) is that the universe is flat..." - http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question35.html

The first statement is right, but the second is false. Nothing inflation requires implies flatness, there are some models that work with a closed universe.

 

[Chalnoth]

However, the theory of inflation predicts the universe is flat:

"The current theoretical belief (because it is predicted by the theory of cosmic inflation) is that the universe is flat..." - http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question35.html

Inflation doesn't predict absolute flatness. It merely predicts that the universe is driven from whatever curvature it started with towards extreme flatness.

 

[audioloop]

the wave-function of self-collapsed? If so, how often does this really occur in the real world [STRIKE]without external measurement being a necessary condition?[/STRIKE]

right.
called the collapse of the state vector

...an inherently probabilistic physical collapse, not limited as in the Copenhagen interpretation to measurement by a macroscopic apparatus, but occurring at all scales...

 

[Rational T]

right.
called the collapse of the state vector

...an inherently probabilistic physical collapse, not limited as in the Copenhagen interpretation to measurement by a macroscopic apparatus, but occurring at all scales...

So it is self-collapsing, if not being caused to collapse by anything external. This means the universe is conscious. A self-collapsing wave function is a conscious experience. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's Orch-Or theory shows this, and nobody has been able to refute it.

 

[Rational T]

right.
called the collapse of the state vector

...an inherently probabilistic physical collapse, not limited as in the Copenhagen interpretation to measurement by a macroscopic apparatus, but occurring at all scales...

This has been all I was trying to get at. If the wave-function of the universe wasn't collapsed by anything external, then it is self-collapsing. Since self-collapsing wave functions most likely equates to a conscious experience (nobody has refuted Orch-Or to date), then this proves the universe is conscious. This means, all acausal tunneling from nothing models fail, because they don't touch on what collapsed the universal wave-function, and neglect that is necessarily due to a conscious experience.

 

[audioloop]

Also, 's only works if is closed:

"The only verifiable (in principle) of the is that must be closed." - http://mukto-mona.net/science/physics/a_vilinkin/universe_from_nothing.pdf

re-read the post.

already posted:

for tunneling universe

Cosmology and Open Universes
http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9905056.pdf

...Restricting ourselves to the Tunneling boundary condition, and applying it in turn to each of these curvatures, it is shown that quantum cosmology actually suggests that be open, k = −1...Quantum Creation of an Open Inflationary Universe
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9802038

If one uses the tunneling wave function for the description of creation of , then in most inflationary the universe should have Ω = 1, which agrees with the standard expectation that inflation makes the universe flat.Nonsingular instantons for the creation of open universes
Phys. Rev. D 59, 043509

We show that the instability of the singular Vilenkin instanton describing the creation of an open universe can be avoided using, instead of a minimally coupled scalar field, an axionic massless scalar field which gives rise to the Giddings-Strominger instanton.

you have to read more about current models to get a wide idea, not only from vilenkin (of boundary proposals)
Brane Cosmology
Boundary Cosmology
Bounce Cosmology
Quiescent Cosmology and other approaches...

 

[Rational T]

re-read the post.

already posted:

None of that has to do with the fact that a self-collapsing wave-function is a conscious experience. You admitted that the universal wave-function is self-collapsing, then this proves an ultimate consciousness. So, it seems science has proved what humans have known for thousands of years already. Thanks for your help!

 

[Chalnoth]

So it is self-collapsing, if not being caused to collapse by anything external. This means the universe is conscious.

No, it doesn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination. No consciousness is required for collapse, as I already showed you earlier.

 

[Rational T]

No, it doesn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination. No consciousness is required for collapse, as I already showed you earlier.

Yes, but your answer neglected Orch-Or.

 

[Rational T]

No, it doesn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination. No consciousness is required for collapse, as I already showed you earlier.

I suggest looking into Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's work. A self-collapsing wave-function is a conscious experience.

 

[audioloop]

None of that has to do with the that a -collapsing wave-function is a conscious experience. You admitted that the universal wave-function is -collapsing, then this proves an ultimate . So, it seems science has proved what humans have known for thousands of years already. Thanks for your help!

has to do with your post:

AAlso, Alexander's model only works if the universe is closed: 's only works if the universe is closed:

"The only verifiable (in principle) prediction of the model is that the universe must be closed." - http://mukto-mona.net/science/physics/a_vilinkin/universe_from_nothing.pdf