Question about an electric circuit and quantum physics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of electrons in an electric circuit, particularly in a scenario involving a short circuit and the implications of quantum physics on electron pathways. Participants explore the relationship between classical circuit theory and quantum mechanics, questioning how a single electron navigates through a circuit with varying resistances.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if an electron is shot from a battery in a circuit with a missing resistor, it would choose the path of least resistance due to quantum effects, implying it explores all paths simultaneously.
  • Another participant argues that explaining conductivity and superconductivity through the behavior of a single electron is flawed, as these are emergent phenomena that require a large number of electrons.
  • A participant uses an analogy of a droplet in a vast swimming pool to illustrate that asking which path a single electron takes is nonsensical in the context of a circuit.
  • One response discusses the principle of least action, stating that while quantum mechanics provides probability amplitudes for various paths, it does not allow for definitive statements about the path taken by a single electron.
  • Another participant notes that if the last resistor is replaced with a short circuit, all voltage would drop across the battery's internal resistance, leading to zero voltage across the resistors and thus no current through them.
  • There is mention of the complexity involved in calculating the behavior of electrons in circuits and the smallness of quantum effects, which may not be detectable in practical scenarios.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of quantum mechanics to the behavior of a single electron in a circuit. There is no consensus on how to reconcile classical circuit theory with quantum behavior, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of electron pathways.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the behavior of electrons in circuits, particularly the dependence on the number of electrons involved and the assumptions underlying classical versus quantum interpretations.

Deo
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So, I've had an argument with a friend of mine about how electrons behave in an electric circuit. He doesn't even know what quantum physics is and I have yet to explain it to him, but the question I'm asking my self is this:

Let's say we have an electrical circuit similar to this one:

parallelcircuit.jpg


and let's say that the conductive material has no resistance at all. Also, one of the four resistors we're seeing in the figure is missing so that we have a short circuit situation. Now, if we were to shoot just one electron from the battery, naturally, it would chose the path where the resistor is missing, even if it was the last or furthest one, right?

Now, assuming what I wrote is true (not sure about that), the reason why the electron knows which path is the right one lies in quantum physics, meaning, it tries all paths at the same time and then chooses the easiest or right one... right?

So, where am I wrong here?

P.S. I'm not that great in physics :p
 
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Deo said:
So, where am I wrong here?

P.S. I'm not that great in physics :p

You are trying to explain an emergent effect (conductivity and superconductivity) with a single electron. That's just not possible.
 
Upisoft said:
You are trying to explain an emergent effect (conductivity and superconductivity) with a single electron. That's just not possible.

Could you elaborate?

Or at least, explain the effect if there's a steady flow of electricity and if there are any weird quantum effects at play... ?
 
Saying that a single electron enters the circuit and takes the path of least resistance doesn't really make sense.

Imagine you had a swimming pool the size of the pacific ocean, on west end of the pool there was an overflow tube, the water is precisely at the level of the overflow and perfectly calm. Now you take an eye dropper and put one drop of water into the pool on the east end. After a period of time one drop of water falls from the overflow on the west end thousands of miles away. Your question would be the equivalent of asking which rout the droplet took through the ocean sized pool.
 
The electric field will push the electrons through the circuit and they will kinda bump each other,
 
(Disclaimer: Apologies for the long response.)

First, I agree with Upisoft. The premise is flawed because the theory of conduction in a solid that the circuit model is founded on, assumes the existence of a large number of 'free' electrons.

But you do raise an interesting question...

Deo said:
...the reason why the electron knows which path is the right one lies in quantum physics, meaning, it tries all paths at the same time and then chooses the easiest or right one... right?

I believe you are referring to the principle of least action, where the path actually chosen is one which satisfies the 'equations of motion' under the boundary conditions. From observation, we expect (classically) that the path the electron actually takes is the one from the battery to the short circuit and back. This can be confirmed by attaching an ammeter in series with one of the resistors.

Let's say that you do this experiment with some kind of a single electron source which you can 'fire at well' to get a single electron out. Let's also assume that the conducting wires are ideal.

The question is: would you make a statement about 'what path the electron takes' with just one experiment? The answer is no. Quantum mechanics will give you probability amplitudes for the electron to take various paths to return to the battery (including, believe it or not, one which doesn't even involve the conductor), but the computation of these amplitudes is founded on the assumption that you have a large number of identical copies of this system on which you can reproduce the experiment an arbitrarily large number of times.

The probabilities are to be interpreted as: "if I do the experiment N times -- one on each identical system, or on the same system after starting afresh -- (N is large), then the probability that the electron will cross the short is...p(N)" and of course you'd expect p(N) to be closer to 1 as N tends to infinity. Actually in this case, the relative smallness of quantum effects will make the difference between p(N) and 1 undetectable.

Note that the actual calculation for a circuit of this kind (or any kind!) will be complicated...I do not know how one would even incorporate the wires and their arrangement into a mathematical boundary condition. But this is where observation comes in. Quantum Mechanics will NOT tell you what will precisely happen. But it will give you a good enough idea. There will be temperatures, voltages, currents and materials (and combinations thereof) where the smallness of the Planck constant will not dwarf quantum effects.

Quantum mechanics is at work and it is why this circuit works the way it does. However, our interpretation that the electron takes all possible paths to reach its destination is one that theory tells us, and any act of measurement or observation will force it to 'collapse' to the classical path -- one that the experimenter will perceive when he measures the currents through the resistors to be zero (from which he would infer that the current passed through the short). This does not mean that the electron will pass through the resistors if you don't look (and not through the short at all)! We cannot make precise statements only probabilistic ones at best in quantum theory.

However, when we observe, measure or interact with the system, it's time evolution changes. In this case, the quantum effects are so small though, that the change in time evolution is imperceptible. How the electron 'knows' the right path isn't something we can really talk about. It just does :smile:.

Have a look at Feynman's book "QED: The Strange New Theory of Light and Matter". Your friend will like it too. Its a wonderful exposition of the principle of least action, and also quantum physics.

---
Attempt at a slightly more mathematical explanation...

I am taking the liberty of throwing in some mathematical arguments. If you are unfamiliar with some basic physics (Lagrangians, actions), then you can read it...otherwise, just ignore what follows and return to it later.

Suppose you were to write down the action (integral of the Lagrangian of quantum electrodynamics over time from t = 0 to t = T, the time it takes for the electron to make a round trip from the battery, through the circuit, and back home). Let's call it S. For any particular path, you would have a particular S, which you would compute by writing down the precise Lagrangian. The principle of least action says that the probability amplitude associated with this path would be proportional to [itex]exp(iS/\hbar)[/itex]. But if [itex]\hbar[/itex] is very small, then this function will be highly oscillatory, and in the limit of [itex]\hbar[/itex] going to 0, the nonzero contribution will only come from the path which extremizes the action (S), let's call it [itex]P_{cl}[/itex].

Now in the classical world, since [itex]\hbar[/itex] is dwarfed out (as argued above), we will only get a nonzero contribution from 'path' [itex]P_{cl}[/itex]. It can be argued and shown that the path will be the one which satisfies Maxwell's equations (ordinary electromagnetism, without observable quantum effects).
 
Let's look at your example again. If the last resistor is replaced with a short circuit of zero ohms, then all of the voltage of the source will be dropped across the internal resistance of the battery and there will be zero voltage across each of the parallel paths. With zero voltage across a resistance there can be no current through the resistor so all the current, even if it is only a single electron, would have to go through the short circuit. I don't see a QM problem here.

If however the resistors all have different resistances then there would be a probability associated with each resistor of the electron choosing each path. For the electron to respond to the different probabilities it may examine each path simultaneously.
 
Thanks for the replies skeptic2 and maverick, more or less what I wanted to know :)
 

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