Question about Purcell - Electricity and Magnetism

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a concept from Purcell's Electricity and Magnetism regarding the magnetic force exerted by a current-carrying wire on a moving charge, and the implications of switching off the current. Participants explore the relationship between electric and magnetic forces in different reference frames, particularly focusing on the effects of Lorentz contraction and charge distribution.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant explains that the magnetic force on a moving charge can be understood as an electric force in the charge's own frame when considering the distribution of charges in the wire.
  • Another participant questions the implications of turning off the current, suggesting that this would lead to a net positive charge in the wire and an electric force on a stationary charge above it.
  • One reply emphasizes that the behavior of length contraction is frame-dependent and should not be confused with changes in charge distribution when the current is turned off.
  • A later post reiterates the point about length contraction, affirming that it applies to the same situation rather than comparing different states of the system.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of turning off the current and the resulting charge distribution in the wire. There is no consensus reached on the interpretation of these effects.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of considering the return wire in the context of current flow, which may affect the conservation of charge in the discussion.

Diaz Lilahk
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In chapter 5 of Purcell's Electricity and Magnetism, he shows using principles of special relatives that the magnetic force of a current carrying wire on a moving charge is equivalent to the charge experiencing an electric force in its own frame of reference.

His argument is that when the current is flowing in the wire, the wire is electrically neutral which means that the moving electrons in the wire are distributed in such a way that along any segment of wire there are equal numbers of electrons as there are holes. So in the lab frame, the charge moving parallel to the direction of the electrons in the wire would experience a magnetic force directed toward or away from the wire depending on the sign or the moving charge. He continues that in the reference frame of the charge moving parallel to the wire which we can assume is greater than the speed of the electrons in the wire. As a result in the reference frame of the charge moving parallel to the wire the distribution of holes undergoes a greater Lorentz length contraction than the electrons in the wire and which would give any segment of wire a net positive charge, therefore the charge would experience an Electric Force.

Now the problem I have with this is that if I turned off the current, this would imply that a stationary charge above the wire would experience an Electric force. Since the distribution of electrons in the wire would undergo a length expansion since they are no longer moving relative to the lab frame, as a result the wire should have a net positive charge and the stationary charge above the wire would experience an Electric force. But this is definitely not what we observe.

What am I missing?

Thank you.
 
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If you turn off the current the electrons in the wire will decelerate to rest with respect to the wire. What will happen to the different Lorentz contractions and the net charge then?

If the answer seems to violate the conservation of charge, you've probably forgotten to take the "return" wire into account. Current flows round a loop.

Does that help?
 
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Zaid Khalil said:
...if I turned off the current...the distribution of electrons in the wire would undergo a length expansion since they are no longer moving relative to the lab frame...

Length contraction describes the relation between different frames for the same situation, not between different situations (current off / on).

See this post by DrGreg with a great diagram:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=4528480

attachment.php?attachmentid=44016&d=1329434012.png
 
A.T. said:
Length contraction describes the relation between different frames for the same situation, not between different situations (current off / on).

See this post by DrGreg with a great diagram:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=4528480

attachment.php?attachmentid=44016&d=1329434012.png
Thank you, I think this is definitely it.
 

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