Question on Higgs analogy - any answers?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the analogy of a popular scientist walking into a room to explain the Higgs field and its relationship to mass. Participants explore the implications of this analogy, questioning how different particles interact with the Higgs field and what determines their mass. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects of particle physics and the nature of mass itself.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant interprets the analogy as suggesting that massive particles attract the Higgs field more strongly, resulting in greater inertia and mass, while less massive particles attract it weakly.
  • Another participant proposes that the analogy implies a distinction between the inherent attractiveness of particles and the mass they gain from the Higgs field, questioning the nature of "original mass."
  • A later reply states that the reason for the varying attraction of the Higgs field to different particles is unknown, highlighting the role of coupling constants in determining mass values.
  • One participant emphasizes that analogies are not perfect representations of complex mathematical descriptions and that attempting to add more features can lead to confusion.
  • Another participant notes that in the Standard Model, the mass of particles arises from their coupling to the Higgs field, which involves free parameters that lack a deeper explanation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness of the analogy and the nature of mass, with no consensus reached on the underlying reasons for the differences in particle attraction to the Higgs field.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reveals limitations in understanding the parameters that determine particle masses and the nature of mass itself, as well as the challenges in using analogies to convey complex physical concepts.

trsn500
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Hi all

I was looking at ways to teach about the Higgs and came across the old 'well-known scientist walks across a conference hall' analogy (see link below)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18707698

My interpretation of this goes as follows:

1. massive particles strongly 'attract' the Higgs field, slowing them down - giving them inertia (mass)
2. less massive particles only weakly 'attract' the Higgs field, so they aren't slowed down very much and have lower inertia
3. massless particles like photons don't 'attract' the Higgs field at all so aren't slowed down at all, have no mass/inertia and travel at the maximum possible speed (c)

Ok. Let's imagine particles A (massive) and B (less massive).

NOW... I would like to know what it is that makes the Higgs field cluster strongly around particle A - (slowing it down, giving it more mass/inertia) - but only cluster weakly around particle B (slowing it down less, giving it less mass/inertia).

The answer can't be that "particle A has more mass" since then we'd have a circular analogy as follows
1. Particle A is massive
2. so the Higgs field strongly clusters around it
3. slowing it down and thereby giving it it's large mass

... circular see!

So; apart from mass, what is the difference between particle A (The popular scientist) and particle B (the less popular scientist), that results in particle A attracting more Higgs field?

And what could be added to the 'popular scientist' analogy to make it non-circular? (or is it, in fact, a rubbish analogy?)

Ta!
 
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I might be wrong here, but the analogy of a popular scientist walking into a room, is only meaning that they attract MORE mass than what they had, thus gaining more mass than they originally had themselves. It's not a matter of the mass of the popular scientist attracting the students, it's a matter of how attractive the scientist is to the students. Another way to think about it, might be a cereal bowl. If you've ever eaten cereal in your life, I'm sure that you will have noticed that as you reach the end of the cereal, the pieces begin to clump together. The ones that move around most from one place to another are able to attract a larger gathering of other cereal pieces till at last they become so large that they barely move at all. There will also be a few "stragglers" left behind that only clump in a group of one or two, and these are able to move more freely due to their smaller size as a group.
 
talieseen said:
I might be wrong here, but the analogy of a popular scientist walking into a room, is only meaning that they attract MORE mass than what they had, thus gaining more mass than they originally had themselves.

I thought the Higgs field is the source of all mass (meaning there's no such thing as 'the mass the particle originally had') ... or are you saying that there are two kinds of mass, 'original-mass' and 'extra-mass-caused-by-Higgs-field'... in which case what is the source of 'original-mass'??

talieseen said:
It's not a matter of the mass of the popular scientist attracting the students, it's a matter of how attractive the scientist is to the students.

ok, so what makes the popular scientist more attractive to the students (what makes particle A more attractive to the Higgs field?) ?

sorry!
 
what makes particle A more attractive to the Higgs field?
No one knows.

The Higgs field is responsible for the mass term for the gauge bosons (W, Z), the elementary fermions (electron, etc) and the Higgs boson itself. The values are
MW = ½gv
MZ = ½v√(g2 + g'2)
Me = Gev/√2
Mh = v√2λ
where v = 246 GeV is the value of the Higgs field. In every case there's a coupling constant involved whose value is not determined by the standard model.
 
You have to accept that an analogy is just that - an analogy, not a perfect description of what's happening. That description is mathematical. Trying to capture more and more features of the mathematics in the analogy quickly comes to a point where the whole thing collapses. ("The scientist is carrying a pair of trained ferrets, one pregnant...")
 
In the Standard Model, particle masses come from the coupling strength of the Higgs to the individual particles - those are free parameters in the theory, and we have no explanation for their values.
Maybe there is some deeper theory which can explain the parameters.
 

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