Question on learning a second language

[Agent M27]

I have noticed that when one learns a second language they tend to learn how to read then write and lastly they learn to speak the language. I have noticed this pattern when I have attempted learning a second language as well as when my father was attempting to learn a second language. Depending on the language, I have been able to write it before I was able to read it, but never learned to actually speak it first. So I have been wondering if there is any mechanistic reason for this being the sequence of acquisition, or is this simply how I and my father acquire the ability of a second language? In my opinion the most important level of understanding for a second language is in the ability to communicate verbally with native speakers, so it is puzzling to me that my brain would learn this last. The only rationale I can conjure is that when reading I can move at my pace and search for the meaning in context. However when speaking the language, I have to properly conjugate the words, arrange them in the native sentence structure, as well as properly place any accents, which takes a lot more processing power and time. Thanks in advance.

Joe

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I have noticed that when one learns a second language they tend to learn how to read then write and lastly they learn to speak the language. I have noticed this pattern when I have attempted learning a second language as well as when my father was attempting to learn a second language. Depending on the language, I have been able to write it before I was able to read it, but never learned to actually speak it first. So I have been wondering if there is any mechanistic reason for this being the sequence of acquisition, or is this simply how I and my father acquire the ability of a second language? In my opinion the most important level of understanding for a second language is in the ability to communicate verbally with native speakers, so it is puzzling to me that my brain would learn this last. The only rationale I can conjure is that when reading I can move at my pace and search for the meaning in context. However when speaking the language, I have to properly conjugate the words, arrange them in the native sentence structure, as well as properly place any accents, which takes a lot more processing power and time. Thanks in advance.

Joe

To a certain extent, it depends on why to want to learn a new language. If you only intend to read it, you can learn it from a book or other printed material. I know people who learned only written German or Russian. However, most of the time, you want to be able to speak it and be able to function in that language. For that, total immersion from Day 1 in a place where the language is spoken is the best way. It's challenging, but if you're with a small group of peers at the same level with a mentor, you'll be amazed how quickly you gain competence and confidence. You speak, read, write. watch TV and movies, eat, sleep and even curse in the language (it really relieves stress, but be careful where you do that).

Short of that, a good language class must involve reading, writing and speaking the language from the beginning IMO.

 

[symbolipoint]

I have noticed that when one learns a second language they tend to learn how to read then write and lastly they learn to speak the language. I have noticed this pattern when I have attempted learning a second language as well as when my father was attempting to learn a second language. Depending on the language, I have been able to write it before I was able to read it, but never learned to actually speak it first. So I have been wondering if there is any mechanistic reason for this being the sequence of acquisition, or is this simply how I and my father acquire the ability of a second language? In my opinion the most important level of understanding for a second language is in the ability to communicate verbally with native speakers, so it is puzzling to me that my brain would learn this last. The only rationale I can conjure is that when reading I can move at my pace and search for the meaning in context. However when speaking the language, I have to properly conjugate the words, arrange them in the native sentence structure, as well as properly place any accents, which takes a lot more processing power and time. Thanks in advance.

Joe

You have a really good sense about the meaning of and purpose of natural human languages. What you described about the way languages are being taught is way too common. A few language teachers have a different(better) understanding and actually instruct both for speaking communication AND for written communication, and conduct activities for both during each class meeting. You would find that a strong emphasis on interactive speaking & listening is made part of instruction for English as a Second language instruction. (and probably for other languages "as a second language").

 

[Energystrom]

Most of the emphasis in teaching on learning a second language does come in the reading and writing areas--at least in the classroom (qualification: this is in my experience). For this reason, if you want your ability to speak the language to proceed at the same rate, you have to put a commensurate amount of time into it outside of the class, which rarely occurs with many students.

Having an adequate grasp of the grammar and vocabulary to read (and then progressively, write), is not too difficult; the real challenge is being able to rapidly generate novel structure using the understood rules of the language. Developing a familiarity with the language to this point is far more difficult, and generally comes with practice. Devoting 50 minutes a day, three days a week, to speaking a limited amount of a second language simply will not give you the ability to speak fluently outside of class.

 

[skeptic2]

When I was learning Spanish, most of my teachers taught us to speak it before reading or writing it. In my first Spanish class we didn't open the book for 6 weeks. When my daughter began speaking we lived 10 miles north of the border in Arizona and where we lived, everyone spoke Spanish all the time. At first it puzzled us when our daughter began speaking English on her own but soon realized it must have come from television. Kids naturally learn languages even foreign languages by speaking them before reading or writing them. Speaking has the advantage of interaction. If a word is misunderstood or misused while speaking, it can easily be corrected. That isn't true for reading or writing.

 

[skeptic2]

The only rationale I can conjure is that when reading I can move at my pace and search for the meaning in context. However when speaking the language, I have to properly conjugate the words, arrange them in the native sentence structure, as well as properly place any accents, which takes a lot more processing power and time. Thanks in advance.

Joe

I think there's a lot of truth in the above. When I was at the verge of fluency I would start thinking of my response while the other person was still talking and make about three passes through my sentence before I actually spoke it. The first was for verb conjugation, the second was for syntax and the third was to match the gender of articles, nouns and adjectives.

By the way, for a very interesting story about learning another language read Tuva or Bust by Richard Feynman. Feynman became interested in a place called Tuva which was, as close as he could tell, at the geographical center of Asia. He found an article about it in the encyclopedia that had a picture of a man beside a yurt and decided to write the man after coming across a Tuvan to Russian dictionary. Finding a Russian to English dictionary wasn't hard so he attempted a double translation and wrote the man.

He tried for years to get a visa to visit Tuva but because he had worked on the bomb, the Soviets wouldn't let him go. Finally, 6 months after he died, his visa arrived.

 

[symbolipoint]

skeptic2

What you describe is the problem with formal language study. (Posts #5 and #6 - most of #6, anyway). When people either acquire or are taught for purpose of acquiring the language, they do not translate between their own language and the target language; they can THINK in the target language.

 

[Hush]

... Depending on the language, I have been able to write it before I was able to read it, but never learned to actually speak it first. So I have been wondering if there is any mechanistic reason for this being the sequence of acquisition, or is this simply how I and my father acquire the ability of a second language? ... However when speaking the language, I have to properly conjugate the words, arrange them in the native sentence structure, as well as properly place any accents, which takes a lot more processing power and time. Thanks in advance.

Joe

Try translating English 3200 (out of print - copies everywhere, however) into the language you are attempting to acquire. There are no verbal (acoustical recordings) or written translations of this work. This is the fastest way to obtain fluency in all three facets - reading, writing, speech. I was raised multilingual. I have not checked out the time it takes to acquire fluency in languages that I have not been exposed to early in my life.

Of course, fast fluency threatens the language learning institutions everywhere in the world that have mystified the language learning process. Expect nothing except dismissal.
There is no interest in withdrawing the existential justification of language learning institutions.

Structure is everything. The more structure the languages share in common, the faster the fluency in all three facets - reading, writing, speech - takes place, for the language you have chosen to learn.

I can imagine 'writing' Chinese, without the slightest knowledge of knowing what I am writing (photographic memory simply 'drawing' and recalling the symbols).

Most people harbor subliminal fear of total immersion. The fear of loss of the native, mother, original language. I do not know how to dispel that fear. Saying this did not happened to me is hardly therapeutic.

And yes, your 'thinking' is the language you actively articulate - eventually.

Thanks for sharing and your welcome.