Questions of calculus of crystal structures

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculus of crystal structures, specifically focusing on the geometric relationships involving vectors, cross products, and dot products in the context of parallelepiped volume calculations. Participants explore the mathematical expressions related to these concepts, including the area of the base and the height of the parallelepiped.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss the relationship between the area of the base of a parallelepiped and the cross product of vectors, suggesting that |a||b|sinθ represents the area.
  • Others clarify that |c|cosφ represents the height of the parallelepiped, leading to the volume calculation as the product of the base area and height.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of |a x b| and whether it should be treated as a scalar or a vector, with some asserting that |a x b| is a scalar while |a x b|n is a vector.
  • Participants express confusion about the notation and the definitions of the terms used, particularly regarding the transition from scalar to vector forms.
  • Some participants propose that absinΘ = |a x b| and ccosΦ = n·c, while others challenge this by emphasizing the need for both sides of the equations to be scalars.
  • There is a discussion about the correct notation for vectors in the forum, with suggestions to use LaTeX for clarity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretations of the mathematical expressions and their implications. Multiple competing views remain regarding the definitions and relationships of the terms involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions of certain terms and the assumptions underlying their equations. There are unresolved questions about the notation and the proper treatment of vectors versus scalars in the context of the discussion.

mysci
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upload_2015-3-3_22-26-6.png


We know the rule of cross product
upload_2015-3-3_22-27-38.png
or
2d308f37dd82911690b919157eace04d.png


Why here |absinΘ| =
upload_2015-3-3_22-39-31.png
, and
upload_2015-3-3_23-13-6.png
= c cos Φ in the above picture?

Thanks for explanation.
 
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mysci said:
View attachment 79881

We know the rule of cross productView attachment 79882 or
2d308f37dd82911690b919157eace04d.png


Why here |absinΘ| = View attachment 79883 , and View attachment 79884 = c cos Φ in the above picture?
|a||b|sinθ is the area of the base, and is also the magnitude of the cross product of ##\vec{a}## and ##\vec{b}## -- i.e., |##\vec{a}## X ##\vec{b}|##. |c|cosφ gives the height of the parallelipiped. The product of the area of the base and the height gives the volume of the cell.
 
The base is formed by two vectors with lengths ||a|| and ||b|| and angle between them [itex]\theta[/itex]. Draw a line from the tip of line b to the base, the line forming the vector a. That gives you a right triangle with hypotenuse of length ||b||. So the "opposite side", the height of the parallelogram forming the base of the figure. The "opposite side over the hypotenuse" is sine of the angle so [itex]height/||b||= sin(\theta)[/itex] and [itex]height= ||b|| sin(\theta)[/itex]. The area of a parallelogram is "height times base" so [itex]||a||||b|| sin(\theta)[/itex].
 
Mark44 said:
|a||b|sinθ is the area of the base, and is also the magnitude of the cross product of ##\vec{a}## and ##\vec{b}## -- i.e., |##\vec{a}## X ##\vec{b}|##. |c|cosφ gives the height of the parallelipiped. The product of the area of the base and the height gives the volume of the cell.

Thanks.

Yes, but why not |axb|, is |axb|(unit vector n) in third step?

absinΘ and |axbl are also magnitudes, but |axb|(unit vector n) is a vector. absinΘ = |axb| ≠ |axb|(unit vector n) = vector a x vector b.

However, here absinΘ = |axb|(unit vector n). I don't understand this.

On the other hand, ccosφ is the height of parallelogram, how to change it to vector c? I don't understand it as well.

Thanks.
 
mysci said:
Thanks.

Yes, but why not |axb|, is |axb|(unit vector n) in third step?
|a x b| is a scalar, while |a x b|n is a vector that points straight up, and that whose magnitude is the area of the base. If you dot this vector (|a x b|n) with c, you get the volume. One definition for the dot product of a and b is ##a \cdot b = |a| |b| cos(\theta)##, where ##\theta## is the angle between the two vectors. In your problem, the angle is ##\phi##.
mysci said:
absinΘ and |axbl are also magnitudes, but |axb|(unit vector n) is a vector. absinΘ = |axb| ≠ |axb|(unit vector n) = vector a x vector b.

However, here absinΘ = |axb|(unit vector n). I don't understand this.

On the other hand, ccosφ is the height of parallelogram, how to change it to vector c? I don't understand it as well.

Thanks.
 
I may get something.
In fact,
absinΘ = |axb|
ccosΦ = n·c
Is it right?

I thought absinΘ = |axb|n and ccosΦ = c before I get the above thinking.
 
Mark44 said:
|a x b| is a scalar, while |a x b|n is a vector that points straight up, and that whose magnitude is the area of the base. If you dot this vector (|a x b|n) with c, you get the volume. One definition for the dot product of a and b is ##a \cdot b = |a| |b| cos(\theta)##, where ##\theta## is the angle between the two vectors. In your problem, the angle is ##\phi##.

By the way, how do you type the vector symbol in here? I can't find this symbol. Thanks.
 
I use LaTeX. Put either two # symbols at the front and two more at the end (for inline) or two $ symbols front and back (for standalone).

Here I'm adding an extra space between each pair so you can see what it looks like without being rendered: # #\vec{a}# #
Removing the spaces gives ##\vec{a}##
 
Mark44 said:
I use LaTeX. Put either two # symbols at the front and two more at the end (for inline) or two $ symbols front and back (for standalone).

Here I'm adding an extra space between each pair so you can see what it looks like without being rendered: # #\vec{a}# #
Removing the spaces gives ##\vec{a}##
Thanks.

Then
I got following,
absinΘ = |axb|
ccosΦ = n·c
Is it right?
 
  • #10
mysci said:
Thanks.

Then
I got following,
absinΘ = |axb|
Should be |a||b|sinθ = |a x b|. a and b are vectors, so ab is not defined. Both sides of the equation should be scalars, which is why you have the magnitudes (absolute values).
mysci said:
ccosΦ = n·c
The right side is a scalar because it's a dot product, so the left side needs to be a scalar as well.
The left side should be |c|cosΦ.
mysci said:
Is it right?
 
  • #11
Mark44 said:
Should be |a||b|sinθ = |a x b|. a and b are vectors, so ab is not defined. Both sides of the equation should be scalars, which is why you have the magnitudes (absolute values).
The right side is a scalar because it's a dot product, so the left side needs to be a scalar as well.
The left side should be |c|cosΦ.
Thank you.:wink:
 

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