Realistic Space Pirates in Hard SF

[GTOM]

International laws don't apply, especially not the ones prohibit privateering and prize captains for taking out enemy vessels.
Local governors enforce laws most times, that follows the directives of the major power that helds the colony.

They trade with Earth. Warships that don't belong to planetary government are prohibited from entering orbital space (roughly 1 million km from planet) cargo ships can (if they armed, they conceal the weapons) in order to trade, sell ores the Earth, ship biogenic material and other such things to the belt.
Earth's corrupt government barely cares about violating basic human rights in the belt (i think the one killed by my assassin character can be also involved in selling girls to the belt.)

 

[Lord Anoobis]

Piracy formed a major part of the plot in Piers Anthony's Bio of a Space Tyrant. The development of gravity shielding and lensing making space travel cheap and easy, piracy soon followed. It makes for interesting reading, particularly how he deals with the matter of combat in space, among other things. Bear in mind that it was written during the eighties, so while it's set in the future, soviet Russia features strongly. So it might seem a bit anachronistic to some.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Piracy is stealing ships - fr the ships themselves or for the cargo.
As long as the cargo or the ships is valuable, there will likely be an arms race between the crooks and those who want to stop them.
Difficulties mean that more creative approaches need to be made - and, in a pinch, you can always steal the ship from the inside.
The details depend on the culture. Where do the pirates come from and where do they get their ships? They are pirates - they stole them: their ships look exactly like legitimate ships. Until they get close. If there is customs and smuggling then pretending to be law enforcement is another approach. Once close the main difficulty is getting aboard so: start with someone aboard, get very sneaky, or give the crew a reason to cooperate.

You also may want to take a look at how big the solar system is and then work out how dense the enforcers have to be to have a chance of intercepting pirates in the act. Just because the pirates got seen and tracked does not mean they get caught - examine the somali pirate actvities ... it's not like nobody knows where the ships went.

 

[GTOM]

Good ideas. :)

I only thinking about one boarding action against an uncooperative ship, when they want to capture a VIP alive, slicing up the ship with the lasers is too risky. At first yes, the ship can spin all around, and it is a spin ship anyway... at that point the pirates receive a military grade fast ship, so while it is a stunt, they can synchronize the movement, cut an entryway on the central part with the defence laser, than use grappling hooks to attach themselves... they can seal the holes on the hull, with some kind of material that soldifies quickly, although everyone aboard can be expected to have a space activity suit.
Closed airtight doors and lifts and guards are further obstacles... probably they need to drag a heavy laser driller or something like that.

 

[Khatti]

Is there some reason why your ships wouldn't have a stationary hatch in the nose of the ship? That seems like a good design if you're a freighter. Though going in through the nose of a ship that's hostile to you would have some problems.

 

[GTOM]

Is there some reason why your ships wouldn't have a stationary hatch in the nose of the ship? That seems like a good design if you're a freighter. Though going in through the nose of a ship that's hostile to you would have some problems.

If a rotating and a standing part is attached, the ship regularly has to expend fuel, otherwise one part will take the speed of the other. If the ship has all around propulsion, coming from any direction can be dangerous, that is where superior acceleration, lasers to melt the way inside comes handy.

 

[dragoneyes001]

take David Webers Honor Harrington series for example the space involved is thousands of light years in most directions involving hundreds of star systems with wormholes and FTL travel space pirates would have no shortage of ambush spots to use.

laying in wait on yellow routes makes heat signatures unreliable. the vast size involved makes scopes nearly useless because your looking for a needle in a haystack bigger than the barn. local defenses would be able to use pretty cheap ways of detecting ships but as the distances between the local groups expands so does the number of easy ambush places increase.

 

[GTOM]

(Maybe this could be moved to writing subsection)
I wondered about a situation, where they want to capture a ship with a VIP on it.
The guards and VIP move into the reactor block, so they can't use the shipborne lasers against them. But they can still fire guns out of the reactor block.

Could it be realistic to fill the reactor block with hydrogen from the ship's tank, and say : now if you fire, you all die, fist to fist combat in power armor?
(They did a similar thing in Legend of Galactic Heroes with a Zephyr stuff.)

 

[Khatti]

Could it be realistic to fill the reactor block with hydrogen from the ship's tank, and say : now if you fire, you all die, fist to fist combat in power armor?

If the armor gives off a spark during the fist-fight you're no better off than if you had a firefight. Unless the space-equivalent of Her Royal Majesty's Navy is about to sail over the horizon the smart thing to do if you're a space pirate is wait them out. VIP and guards are going to have to come out at some point, they're going to run out of air or water or food. Not terribly razzle-dazzle, but tried-and-true.

 

[GTOM]

If the armor gives off a spark during the fist-fight you're no better off than if you had a firefight. Unless the space-equivalent of Her Royal Majesty's Navy is about to sail over the horizon the smart thing to do if you're a space pirate is wait them out. VIP and guards are going to have to come out at some point, they're going to run out of air or water or food. Not terribly razzle-dazzle, but tried-and-true.

Thanks. Well, if the guards are fanatic enough, and believe they will be killed anyway maybe they try to charge even if they know there will be laser turret support.
(Giving exact coordinates inside ship isn't that trival, they can jam radio and take out optic cables.)

 

[Khatti]

If the armor gives off a spark during the fist-fight you're no better off than if you had a firefight.

Actually there might be an out for this. If the armor is made out of carbon you may get no spark from it if it is hit the right way. Would carbon behave the same way as iron or steel?

 

[GTOM]

Actually there might be an out for this. If the armor is made out of carbon you may get no spark from it if it is hit the right way. Would carbon behave the same way as iron or steel?

Maybe they could have armor made of carbon nanotubes. (I don't know whether it makes a spark or no)
But make them run out of supply in reactor core is perfectly reasonable. Maybe the pirates don't have a chance without lascannon support, they can only drag a few men and containers of coolant if they want to have a chance in the ship to ship combat. (Still they couldn't do that job if the VIP weren't betrayed by his brother and make escort cruiser unable to fight.)

 

[Khatti]

Maybe they could have armor made of carbon nanotubes. (I don't know whether it makes a spark or no)

I've realized that I don't know the physics of why iron and flint give off sparks if hit correctly. A sudden release of electrons? Carbon may not be any safer than steel in this case. For that matter, carbon is an essential part of steel.

 

[Simon Bridge]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint
When struck against steel, a flint edge will produce sparks. The hard flint edge shaves off a particle of the steel that exposes iron which reacts with oxygen from the atmosphere and can ignite the proper tinder. Prior to the wide availability of steel, rocks of iron pyrite would be used along with the flint, in a similar (but more time-consuming) way. These methods are popular in woodcraft, bushcraft, and among those who wish to use traditional skills.

 

[GTOM]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint
When struck against steel, a flint edge will produce sparks. The hard flint edge shaves off a particle of the steel that exposes iron which reacts with oxygen from the atmosphere and can ignite the proper tinder. Prior to the wide availability of steel, rocks of iron pyrite would be used along with the flint, in a similar (but more time-consuming) way. These methods are popular in woodcraft, bushcraft, and among those who wish to use traditional skills.

Does that actually means that futuristic alloys, ceramites wouldn't make a spark? (no shave off iron powder) Otherwise i redesigned that scene, the defenders hide in a big garden. (VIP hates hybernation, so the ship has a big garden)

 

[Ryan_m_b]

What's the general level of technology you want in this setting? A large garden is likely to add a huge amount of mass to your craft, thus significantly increasing the amount of fuel that needs to be carried. How much money do these VIPs have that the cost of that can be justified? And what exactly about the suspended animation technology do they not like since they wouldn't be consciously aware of the situation?

 

[Khatti]

When struck against steel, a flint edge will produce sparks. The hard flint edge shaves off a particle of the steel that exposes iron which reacts with oxygen from the atmosphere and can ignite the proper tinder. Prior to the wide availability of steel, rocks of iron pyrite would be used along with the flint, in a similar (but more time-consuming) way. These methods are popular in woodcraft, bushcraft, and among those who wish to use traditional skills.

Yeah I checked out Wikipedia after I I made my last post. In essence the spark is a chemical reaction. Now I need to go back to Wikipedia and see what the chemistry of carbon nanotubes are.

What's the general level of technology you want in this setting? A large garden is likely to add a huge amount of mass to your craft, thus significantly increasing the amount of fuel that needs to be carried. How much money do these VIPs have that the cost of that can be justified? And what exactly about the suspended animation technology do they not like since they wouldn't be consciously aware of the situation?

Yeah, there is always the question of How Expensive is Expensive and how Cheap is Cheap. GTOM is trying to do a Hal Clements space opera; very hard science, very near future. That means you spend a lot more time with your calculator and spreadsheets than I need to in my space opera where the technology is utterly removed from what we know.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Yeah, there is always the question of How Expensive is Expensive and how Cheap is Cheap. GTOM is trying to do a Hal Clements space opera; very hard science, very near future. That means you spend a lot more time with your calculator and spreadsheets than I need to in my space opera where the technology is utterly removed from what we know.

I do quite a bit of worldbuilding, both solo and with other online groups. Some of it has been hard SF and yeah I agree, the spreadsheets do become key lol. The important thing, which I don't think GTOM is doing from what I see here and in other threads, is to firmly establish some core rules/characteristics and work outwards from there. Instead there seems to be a lot of jumping around, like the sudden introduction of a giant park on a spaceship rather than the consideration of what such a spaceship might have.

 

[Khatti]

The important thing, which I don't think GTOM is doing from what I see here and in other threads, is to firmly establish some core rules/characteristics and work outwards from there. Instead there seems to be a lot of jumping around, like the sudden introduction of a giant park on a spaceship rather than the consideration of what such a spaceship might have.

And figuring out those rules and characteristics can be a pain in the butt. In story you often want to do a few things that--surprise, surprise!--come in conflict with each other. The trick is to figure out the mathematical equation or cake recipe that takes all these elements into account--and in their proper proportions. It is a lot easier to say than to do.

 

[GTOM]

I do quite a bit of worldbuilding, both solo and with other online groups. Some of it has been hard SF and yeah I agree, the spreadsheets do become key lol. The important thing, which I don't think GTOM is doing from what I see here and in other threads, is to firmly establish some core rules/characteristics and work outwards from there. Instead there seems to be a lot of jumping around, like the sudden introduction of a giant park on a spaceship rather than the consideration of what such a spaceship might have.

That is what i did when i calculated propulsion power requirements and laser melt through armor requirements. And finally reached the conclusion after i read about X-laser, that X proof mirror with human technology would be too much, so redesigned space battles to more like Age of Sail battles, since after a certain range, lasers won't make instant kill. That also resulted in considering my plan for final battle wouldn't be epic enough, that came with redesign ending.
Otherwise writing a good story means you don't only write things and events that have at least 90% plausibility based on everything we know, sometimes tech level has to be reverse enginered.

In the current example, that VIP is the son of construction expert megacorp's leader, if you have a significant share of asteroid belt's mines, you can build a fast ship with a garden.

Tech level : fusion reactors, delta-V of interplanetary ship on the order of 25-100 km/s, hybernation (a rather unpleasant experience), direct human-computer interfaces, cancer can be cured, but heal of nastier types is really expensive, powered battle armors, personal coilgun for heavy infantry (with infantry power sources and combat distances (atmosphere can also count) kinetics are still better), only one place has human level AI (it is rather a great manager than somewhat terribly creative)
New types of pwer storage i can think about : carbon nanotube capacitators, explosive flux generators, burn isotopes with a big alpha emission.
Robots are widely used, but usually they arent trusted to make important, military decisions, on a planet, automatization level is lower, due to different reasons (a rational reason is to be able to raise population without creating unemployment)

 

[Khatti]

And what exactly about the suspended animation technology do they not like since they wouldn't be consciously aware of the situation?

hybernation (a rather unpleasant experience)

There are a couple of things I'd like to say about this aspect. Science Fiction people are so used to the idea of cryogenic suspension that it doesn't occur to us that people may balk at the thought of this. There will most-likely be people in the future who are just as afraid of this technology as there are people now who are afraid of flying. Also, being awake for the whole trip might be a status symbol thing: "It's poor people who have to get the deep-sleep. I don't have to!"

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Not saying that isn't a possibility but I'd be disappointed in a setting in which that was universal. Fear of new technologies rapidly dies off. A status symbol is a possibility but to expand on that (and perhaps justify the park in spaaaace idea): if we posit a setting with cheap and easy space travel there are still economic considerations (unless we're going super cheap). Regular transports might be little more than suspended animation stacks. The 1% might instead travel in ships that have luxuries like large rooms, spas, entertainments like a cruise ship. The mass per passenger becomes horrendously large compared to regular (four or more orders of magnitude wouldn't surprise me) and given the more than linear fuel increase the price is likely to be astronomical. But the rich will be rich.

RE the park: how do you plan on fitting an entire park on a space ship? The only image I have so far is for the ship to be quite large and have multiple habitat rings perhaps a few hundred meters in diameter (spun for gravity). One of which is a park.

RE pirates getting on board the difficulties in that seem to stack up so much that it's hard to believe. They'd have to intercept from long distance without being intercepted during or later themselves. They'd have to dock with a spinning craft capable of moving around last minute. In a world where this is a risk it's likely regular vessels would have defences (particularly if cyberpunk megacorps are involved) so they'd have to risk being destroyed or fatally damaged when they get close, they'd have to survive a fight inside when they don't control the ships systems or defences etc etc etc. It all adds up to become a bit unbelievable IMO, at least as a regular thing. One big game changer is subterfuge and infiltration. If the would-be kidnappers could get one of their own on board pretending to crew that person could sabotage the engines, comms and weapons at the right time. Better yet smuggle multiple people on and just overtake the ship wholesale.

 

[Khatti]

Well if the idea is to grow food and maybe produce some oxygen a park may not be needed. If you know what you are doing, and can control everything about the environment, you can grow a lot of stuff in a bed that's four X twenty; at least enough fresh greens and vegetables to supplement a lot of dry macaroni. Of course there's not much chance of hiding in a bed that's four x twenty. If this ship produces it's gravity (well...gravitational effect) by spinning one thing you could do is make the outermost area of the hull into a garden and build the living and freight quarters inside of this garden area. I don't think I'm explaining this well. Imagine that the cross section of the ship looks like the cross section of an onion or a tree stump: they very outermost layer of the onion, or the outermost tree ring would be the deck where the garden could be. The next layer of the onion, or next tree ring, in could be the deck where everyone works and plays. Unless you are raising oranges or almonds the space between these two decks wouldn't have to be much: four feet would be more than enough. Your growing area would be all the space of the exterior hull. This is just something I'm thinking about on the fly, but it might work.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I get what you mean. It all comes down to economics still, how many suspension pods can you fit in an equivalent space of a garden? How much more expensive therefore is the garden in both lost revenue, maintenance and the extra supplies for both it and awake passengers (e.g. Fertiliser, food, power etc).

 

[Khatti]

I get what you mean. It all comes down to economics still, how many suspension pods can you fit in an equivalent space of a garden? How much more expensive therefore is the garden in both lost revenue, maintenance and the extra supplies for both it and awake passengers (e.g. Fertiliser, food, power etc).

The entire area would have to be lighted with sun lamps. And, at the very least, you would have one crewman who would have no other duties than to care for the garden.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Does that actually means that futuristic alloys, ceramites wouldn't make a spark? (no shave off iron powder) Otherwise i redesigned that scene, the defenders hide in a big garden. (VIP hates hybernation, so the ship has a big garden)

... MacGuyver managed to light a magnesium alloy bike frame ... once lit, it was a lighted bike frame.. magnesium is used for bike frames because it's lighter, which is probably what MacGuyver used to light it.
Once it had burned out it was a lot lighter.

 

[GTOM]

Not saying that isn't a possibility but I'd be disappointed in a setting in which that was universal. Fear of new technologies rapidly dies off. A status symbol is a possibility but to expand on that (and perhaps justify the park in spaaaace idea): if we posit a setting with cheap and easy space travel there are still economic considerations (unless we're going super cheap). Regular transports might be little more than suspended animation stacks. The 1% might instead travel in ships that have luxuries like large rooms, spas, entertainments like a cruise ship. The mass per passenger becomes horrendously large compared to regular (four or more orders of magnitude wouldn't surprise me) and given the more than linear fuel increase the price is likely to be astronomical. But the rich will be rich.

RE the park: how do you plan on fitting an entire park on a space ship? The only image I have so far is for the ship to be quite large and have multiple habitat rings perhaps a few hundred meters in diameter (spun for gravity). One of which is a park.

RE pirates getting on board the difficulties in that seem to stack up so much that it's hard to believe. They'd have to intercept from long distance without being intercepted during or later themselves. They'd have to dock with a spinning craft capable of moving around last minute. In a world where this is a risk it's likely regular vessels would have defences (particularly if cyberpunk megacorps are involved) so they'd have to risk being destroyed or fatally damaged when they get close, they'd have to survive a fight inside when they don't control the ships systems or defences etc etc etc. It all adds up to become a bit unbelievable IMO, at least as a regular thing. One big game changer is subterfuge and infiltration. If the would-be kidnappers could get one of their own on board pretending to crew that person could sabotage the engines, comms and weapons at the right time. Better yet smuggle multiple people on and just overtake the ship wholesale.

Fuel requirement isn't linear with growing speeds due to rocket equation, but as far as i know its linear with ship's base mass. Yes, i didnt plan to make a luxury ship with a garden common, that is why i introduced hybernation, to greatly decrease costs of manned flight.
Khatti explained quite well the spin ship i thought about.

The pirates will have inner help, VIP has a character like Nicu Caucescu or Udai Hussein, and really hated by younger brother. Escort cruiser will be disabled, they know in advance the flight plan, hide their vessels in a really big cargo ship. Since pirate ships usually light armed cargo ships, inside cargo bay a fast chem fuel boarding boat, probably an additional fighter to flank the enemy, escort frigates' back are vulnarable.
Due to my scientist character, pirate asteroid received superior plans, of course there will be trouble with experimental technology, i plan the space battle part something like - Coolant pipe leaks, seal it quickly! Replace that melt thingy!
Once they boarded, the pirate ship's lasers can still give fire support. (I introduced garden, spa thing to give hiding place to guards and make surprise attack, it is a long time to board ship due to space distances, they had time to make proper hiding place.)

Certain things work in my story for being unprecedented, like make a Trojan horse trick with big cargo ship. (Warring corps declared that one too dangerous, mine more ore and build more fleet is more reliable)

 

[Khatti]

And don't forget, somewhere in the asteroid belt someone is going to have to be raising a garden. Someone is going to have to have figured out how to do this reasonably economically or we're all going back to Earth. Humans living in the asteroid belt are not going to be living on rocks. What those people will have, that we by definition can't, is experience on how it is done. They may figure out dozens of ways to economize the process that we are just in no position to appreciate. It may also turn out that having some sort of garden on board a ship is a necessity, not a luxury. Just speculatin'.

 

[Khatti]

Off to see The Force Awakens!

 

[Khatti]

GTOM

This may be off the beaten path, but I thought I'd ask anyway. Of late I've become fascinated with the idea of McKendree cylinders and Bishops Rings. What kind of habitats were you planning to fill the Asteroid Belt with anyway?

 

[GTOM]

GTOM

This may be off the beaten path, but I thought I'd ask anyway. Of late I've become fascinated with the idea of McKendree cylinders and Bishops Rings. What kind of habitats were you planning to fill the Asteroid Belt with anyway?

Well, i don't mind that.
I think too much exposure to micrograv would be pretty bad, also a good number of people spend 5-10 years there, then go back to Earth, and have a much higher living standard than average people living from unemployment aid. So they live in spin stations mimic 1g. (It is not common to spin up the whole asteroid, although not unprecedented)
I thought a usual construction would be two levels, low level (outer part) for lower class workers, cramped spaces, overlook minor crimes (recreational drugs, prostitution etc, not murder, firearms, my pirates can learn pretty much brawl - needed when a guard jump to my captian, with the thought, they can't use cannon against him if he is in brawl)
High level for executives, tourists, proved senior and white collar workers: parks, beaches, pretty much light, bigger houses and streets, small gardens etc.

Docks and mines and factories on the asteroid itself, shifts are done by chem fuel shuttles.
While there can be strip mining too, but i guess, in many cases they shaft into asteroid, eventually make it hollowed out like a 3d labirinth, with some shafts big enough for small manned spacecraft to manuever in it.

 

[James Holland]

(so much so that criminals can afford a craft and make enough of a profit to run it)

well to buy a tall ship would cost a couple of thousand pounds (a lot in modern money) when the tall ships were still in use and so pirates then could afford those then surely it would be a similar setting merely with space opposed to oceans and planets opposed to islands. it would also be by the nature of pirating very easy to start small in a little freighter and move up in size very quickly without a issue of cost as a plundered vessel would be effectively the part of the loot allowing one to use it for further pirating.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

well to buy a tall ship would cost a couple of thousand pounds (a lot in modern money) when the tall ships were still in use and so pirates then could afford those then surely it would be a similar setting merely with space opposed to oceans and planets opposed to islands. it would also be by the nature of pirating very easy to start small in a little freighter and move up in size very quickly without a issue of cost as a plundered vessel would be effectively the part of the loot allowing one to use it for further pirating.

Space is not an ocean: period.

 

[James Holland]

yes but in many ways it has similarities it is a vast boundary that is hard to cross dangerous and requires an entire branch of its own tech to move over it is vast and littered with small clumps of rock and one must take with them anything that they need or intend to use.
it is filled with mistery and rumour because it is hard to explore and very alian to us as a species

 

[Khatti]

well to buy a tall ship would cost a couple of thousand pounds (a lot in modern money) when the tall ships were still in use and so pirates then could afford those then surely it would be a similar setting

One of the ways pirates got ship in the Seventeenth Century was by (surprise! surprise!) stealing them. And Ryan is right in other ways. In space if you're hungry you can't drop a line out the airlock and catch a fish.

 

[snorkack]

Even in sea, it is not easy to board a submarine, while she is submerged.

 

[Drakkith]

Even in sea, it is not easy to board a submarine, while she is submerged.

Sure it is. Just swim up and knock on the screen door!

 

[GTOM]

Even in sea, it is not easy to board a submarine, while she is submerged.

IMHO looting a big truck is a better analogy, nothing will sink or crash. Of course the scene is full 3d, so they have to prepare for things like in case of three attackers, one can get into the right position to attack the big radiator wings. That is why i considered an important thing, that an armed cargo ship should have fighters too.

 

[James Holland]

One of the ways pirates got ship in the Seventeenth Century was by (surprise! surprise!) stealing them. And Ryan is right in other ways. In space if you're hungry you can't drop a line out the airlock and catch a fish.

well i can't imagine anyone ever having the power or the resources to keep track of people that have a colossal galaxy hide in and be able to stop them just going into space ports/centres to buy food and drink in addition to other supply's and it is as easy to steal a good tall ship as to steal a good space craft.
i don't know if you have tried but it is surprisingly hard to fish of the back of a tall ship and so it is not much of an issue loosing all possibility of fishing. even if they had the ability they would rarely have the time to fish as being a pirate requires a lot of moving around and evading any form of justice, not exactly the best time to sit down and fish.

 

[snorkack]

IMHO looting a big truck is a better analogy, nothing will sink or crash.

No, but stuff will decompress.

 

[GTOM]

No, but stuff will decompress.

Then what? Even if the crates scatter, it is easy to capture them, leaks can be sealed easily, cargo ships usually unmanned, but if an armed cargo ship is manned, and the crew don't have spacesuits and die... the pirates get over it.

Capturing a space station while not dooming the people isn't that easy, I described, that the assault boats have plasma cutters, melt their way in, then seal the leaks with some kind of metallic foam.