Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

[Moonbear]

I think what Moonbear is getting at is the fact that a gay man does not behave aggressively toward a woman, in general, but rather behaves in a gentlemanly way. On the other hand, I get the impression that far too many heterosexual men behave in a more aggressive manner.

At the risk of generalizing, I think single women are looking for that 'perfect gentleman' with whom they can develop a 'secure' relationship in which they can release that primal scream (I'm using arildno's words here). This is the basic mating pattern. If a woman is going to invest in a relationship in which she will bear children, I expect that she will want the man to be around for a long time - i.e. lifetime.

Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex. Well, it's pretty obvious why once it was revealed that he's gay, he had no sexual feelings for her, just that deep fondness Arildno talks about.

With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing. But, to a high school girl who doesn't know any better yet, he's just a refreshing break from all the rude boys who try to get away with anything they can before they've matured enough to know that's not what women want in a long-term relationship.

 

[ron damon]

Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

that you have very bad taste? Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive

 

[Astronuc]

Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex.

Ah, that's the way I behaved with women when I was single. I never pressured any woman to have sex, actually it was the other way around for me - the girls/women were the ones who initiated physical contact or mentioned anything sexual.

I wanted no ambiguity in a relationship - I wanted the girl/woman, at the time, to know without a doubt that I was not interested in her solely for sex, but I was interested in her as a whole person - particularly with respect to her thoughts and feelings. A relationship between a man and woman is so much more than sex, and in fact being in a mature marriage (in my case, now with two teenagers) sex is a small component.

When I was single, my issue was and still is, that sex belongs within a committed relationship. I waited for the right woman to come along, and my wife has been my one and only initimate partner.

With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing.

When I was in my early teens (actually pre-teens as well), the girls were the ones who initiated 'making out', and that was as far as it went. However, in my late teenage years and early 20's, I was always careful not to encourage any woman - well, that is, until I met the woman I married.

 

[arildno]

I was shocked to read this post. arildno just didn't seem like the person to have that um...lifestyle.

What the heck do you think you know about my "lifestyle"??
I haven't revealed a damn thing about how I live my personal life, nor will I ever do, because that is personal on a level I'm not interested in revealing.
To say that you are "gay" is a lot less revealing about your person than to say you've been married for 25 years.

That you think it is very revealing is because you go about with a lot of fantasies and prejudices in your head which you think describes how "they" live.

 

[arildno]

that you have very bad taste? Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive

Give me a sharp, jagged, angled body not quite fitting together due to all that ferocity straining to get free. What should I do with a soft, curved pillow-body seamlessly joined together?

 

[arildno]

Most of my friends who are gay, have known they were gay from the time they were small children. I know for some it was a struggle to conform to hetero society, tho they gave it there best shot. I can only imagine how hard life was for them at that time. Today they move around society with relative ease, but sill keep in mind, of the places they must avoid.
We have a gay couple who moved onto my block a few years ago. And my other neighbor was so stupid as to say to me, " As long as they stay away form my children, I'm fine with it". I had to laugh, her children are female.

Oh, I've known I've been DIFFERENT from other boys all my remembered life (say from the age of 4-5).
Now, I was never a girlish boy, I could never understand this fascination/repulsion thing other boys seemed to have towards girls.
I was totally indifferent to girls, and wanted to spend my time being with boys, like playing cowboy/indian, police/robber, football and all sorts of other boys' things. My boys' world was complete, and I was rather puzzled that the other boys seemed to need some sort of contact with girls as well.
And yes, there were times as a child when I thought of one friend as a more "special" friend than the others, even though I would be hard put to tell why I thought him special and wanted to be with him a lot more.

So, in that sense, now in the aftermath, I would say that I've been gay all my life, even as a child.

 

[arildno]

Now, although it was a few other things I would have liked to have mentioned ,particularly on how I perceive straights to tend to think and the whole biology issue, I think it is about time to close off this particular thread.
There is, however, one rather important issue I'd like to broach, namely how different the roads to maturity gays experienced due to their different individualities.

I have, naturally enough, the best (least bad?) insight in how my road was; I would like to sketch how this contrasts with, but also has some similarities with how many other gays have experienced growing up.

Essentially, whereas my road was that of having to REALIZE I was gay, for many others, the dominant aspect was always that of ACCEPTING they were gay.
(And the individual gay's road will be some sort of mixture in between)
That is, whereas I had effected a sort of dissociation between my self and my emotions and was as it were, also totally out of touch with my own body, many other gays knew exactly what they were, how they felt, how their bodies reacted and struggled mightily to effect that dissociation I had undergone. That is, they were living in an emotional turmoil with intense, clearly recognized sexual desires coupled with bouts of severe self-condemnation.
For all purposes, they were already burning in hell, and wanted to get out of there by any means possible.
Finally though, many find out that it is their fundamental nature they are struggling with, being gay is absolutely natural to them, and that to try to be something else could at best be a state of self-castration (i.e, effectively where I was), or remain in permanent pain.

Note that a similarity between my own experience and these folks' experience is that when we finally understand or accept ourselves, the most striking, forceful aspect for us is how SELF-EVIDENT it becomes to us that we are gay, how deeply NATURAL it is to us.
That realization, or acceptance if you like, the experience of the self-evidence of our gay nature is, I think a lot stronger integrated in our adult identity sense than the straightness is integrated in heterosexuals.


You never went through this weird type of individual struggles against your own nature, you blossomed in a gradual manner quite distinct from the manner of gays.

Thus, I think it is natural, for example, that straights tend to think of their own sexuality as a distinct aspect of their own personalities (the most cherished flowers in them, perhaps), whereas gays have a tendency to think of their sexuality more like their life's essence even when sex is the furthest thing from their mind.

That, basically, was what I meant with "divergent mentalities", or at least, some of it.

 

[Zygotic Embryo]

" i can tell you straight away"

lmao @ the wordplay

I understand what you mean man


Some people are just to damn caught up in themselves to look at someone, and identify them as gay, instead of getting to know you and see who you really are, i mean there's a big diffrence between gay and straight men.. but it's skin deep that's it. ( unless it's sexual lol )

I knowing a couple gay men, and I have no problem just chillen and hanging out with them in public. Cause there fun to be around..and I am not classifying them, when i say " there".


I respect your ability to be so opened with people about these issues

stay up.

 

[arildno]

I'm glad you're mature enough to see that there are as many differences among gays as there are among straight, and that you can enjoy yourself in either 's company (within limits, of course..)

However, it might still be the case that there are some personality traits which are more commmonly found on one side of the fence than the other, and that that might be related to different experiences in growing up.

For example, take the case of gay men being "funny", jesters and such like.
It might be that since many gay men have had rather harrowing experiences in growing up, this may have born a commitment of having "a good time" on average stronger than that of "normal" straights. That is, they work harder at getting a good time, on average.

Note that there wouldn't really be anything necessarily "gay" about this; it is not uncommon that persons who have gone through a harrowing, life-threatening illness and who got well again say that they are now really appreciating what they were about to lose, and that they become more committed at living a "good" life than they were before.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Very courageous, and I can imagine your relief.

there are some personality traits

One of my gay friends rues missing out on the neatness trait.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Can you tell me one thing, it seems to me that the proportion of exceptional people throughout history (eg some of my favourites, Leonardo, Michealangello, Caravaggio...) and today who prefer their own sex far outweighs the given distribution of gay/straights, am I stereotyping or do you think this is right, and if so why?

 

[arildno]

Can you tell me one thing, it seems to me that the proportion of exceptional people throughout history (eg some of my favourites, Leonardo, Michealangello, Caravaggio...) and today who prefer their own sex far outweighs the given distribution of gay/straights, am I stereotyping or do you think this is right, and if so why?

I think that gay men in particular have to a larger extent than the rest of the population cultivated their ability to take a delight in simple, sensory perceptions.
With that, I mean that you will more often find that gays are likely to take a (ultra-)short break from what they do, and savour say, a fresh scent in the air, humming a long a bit on a caught strain from a melody coming up from downstairs, and that they get invigorated by these short breaks before delving back in what they are doing.

This ability to let yourself be invigorated by whatever small break of monotony you experience can be regarded as the "constructive" side of the often levelled charge against gays that they are "flighty, scatter-brained".
It doesn't at all have to mean an inability to do solid work, but it might certainly mean, on occasion, that doing solid work becomes less of an onerous "duty".


In so far as this is true, I think it might have something to do with that a "healed" gay man (i.e, who has realized and accepted he's gay after an harrowing youth) is perhaps more likely to cherish those moments of happiness he senses present themselves to him.

Furthermore, I think this enhanced receptivity to sensory beauty might well be regarded as a sort of "aestheticism".
I think, however, it is more true to say that gays are more naturally inclined to appreciate art, rather than to say that they are better at making art.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I was thinking of exceptional in other ways besides art, just that art naturally springs to my mind. I should have listed non-artists too.
I do take your point regarding gay aestheticism. Prior to reading your thread I had idly put this down to diverted creativity- creating masterpieces or creatively enjoying them, rather than creating kids!

 

[arildno]

. Prior to reading your thread I had idly put this down to diverted creativity- creating masterpieces or creatively enjoying them, rather than creating kids!

You know, I hadn't thought of that angle!
It might well be something in it..

 

[lwymarie]

I don't care about the gender of ppl... as I live in the Net...

 

[Zygotic Embryo]

OF course, there's going to be certain gestures said.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion man, you can only hope that people mature and realize, if there sexuality is gay and it makes them happy then so be it. Instead of saying ''oh he's gay.. hence he's going to try and be gay around me and hit on me.. i better stay away from him.'' Appreciate what the gay man's got to offer lol.
Hell, i know this one guy who happened to be gay, in some short shorts beating everyone one on one in a game of basketball. Being gay has nothing to do with personality i think, it's only made to seem that way. Not every gay man has to be into the arts, but a lot of them are.

 

[arildno]

I almost don't disagree with you.

However, since our personalities aren't wholly static from our birth (various traits becoming stronger or weaker as a result of individual life experiences and life-choices), consider the following scenario:

Take two guys who start out with basically the SAME personality, one gay, the other straight.
What I suggest, is that since their EXPERIENCES through adolescence will typically be quite strongly different from each other (due to discovery of different sexual orientations), then that difference might cause their adult personalities to diverge even though they started out equal.

I have tried, possibly unsuccessfully, to indicate somewhat more concretely what that might mean. Of course, if, for example "artistic leanings" is totally foreign to the personality profile they had in common originally, then neither the gay or straight guy will develop in that particular direction.

That other major different experiences (like the death of a parent, or a really lucky break with your first job) might have at least as much to say than their realization of different sexualities, is of course not denied either; I've tried to identify what diverging trends we might get, given "all other factors being equal".