Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

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Clausius2

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arildno said:
But, you are simply spoken, God's gift to women.
Thanks man :blushing: . But you should let them know it. It seems they haven't realised of that yet. :cry:
 

arildno

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Astronuc said:
I have never think that a woman would wish to have a man under her thumb - at least, I have never felt I was under any woman's thumb.
I think your wife is quite satisfied at how you've turned out..:wink:

Anyhow, yes, what I describe ARE nuances rather than complete and total opposites; however I do think that some features will spread out more prevalently in one part of the population than in the other. That does not mean there won't be any individuals on the other side of the fence who haven't had rather similar experiences.

Human psychology is damned tough..
 

arildno

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Clausius2 said:
Thanks man :blushing: . But you should let them know it. It seems they haven't realised of that yet. :cry:
The first step is to realize it yourself and ease up. Don't act desperate as if you need her to give some meaning to your life (that signifies you haven't got anything to give her back), be confident in that you, exactly you, have more than enough to give her, be generous in giving of yourself towards her.

Of course, rudeness is an absolute no-no, but through your posts at various times it is totally obvious you would never, ever be rude and insensitive towards a woman.
I wish you the very best of luck, you deserve that.
 

Astronuc

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arildno said:
I think your wife is quite satisfied at how you've turned out..:wink:

Anyhow, yes, what I describe ARE nuances rather than complete and total opposites; however I do think that some features will spread out more prevalently in one part of the population than in the other. That does not mean there won't be any individuals on the other side of the fence who haven't had rather similar experiences.

Human psychology is damned tough..
:rofl: My wife is a psychology major, so that probably helps. :rofl:
 

arildno

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Astronuc said:
:rofl: My wife is a psychology major, so that probably helps. :rofl:
I shrivel at the thought of her..





Not really; but it was a nice and stereotypical statement from my part, don't you think?
 

Astronuc

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I took it as such - :rofl:

She is very cool, and a lot of fun. :smile:

And most importantly - she still puts up with me after 25 years (married 23+ years). :biggrin:
 

arildno

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Yes, she's made a very cute teddy-bear out of you, hasn't she? :wink:

Now, she can have you strictly for fun, none of that reserved guy left, right?
 

Astronuc

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I don't know about cute, but I am cuddly. :biggrin:

We have our passionate moments! :biggrin:
 

AKG

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arildno said:
Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?
Probably. In my experience, it was nothing strange. Actually, I think being straight, you're surrounded by a lot more straight influences. You know some things about sex and stuff like that before you actually go through puberty, so the change doesn't really seem like a distinct change. We're probably conditioned to want to have sex with girls before we actually feel the instinctual desire, so when we do, it's not as shocking.
 

arildno

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AKG said:
Probably. In my experience, it was nothing strange. Actually, I think being straight, you're surrounded by a lot more straight influences. You know some things about sex and stuff like that before you actually go through puberty, so the change doesn't really seem like a distinct change. We're probably conditioned to want to have sex with girls before we actually feel the instinctual desire, so when we do, it's not as shocking.
My point was that you were never in doubt that your feelings were YOUR feelings, however much they changed (or possibly, didn't change) you. (Were you in doubt?)

I thought mine weren't mine, and that's the basic point I was trying to convey.
 
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AKG

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I see. Yeah, I think I would have felt them to be my feelings.
 

Astronuc

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arildno said:
My point was that you were never in doubt that your feelings were YOUR feelings, however much they changed (or possibly, didn't change) you. (Were you in doubt?)

I thought mine weren't mine, and that's the basic point I was trying to convey.
OK, now I understand the point clearly. My feelings have always been my feelings - although I certainly questioned whether my feelings where right or appropriate (well I question everything anyway - Asperger's perhaps - busy mind) - they were nevertheless my feelings.

I'll check with some friends to see if they had similar experience.
 

arildno

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It was certainly a bit extremely put from my side. A slightly more accurate way of saying it is, is that what I did feel when I allowed myself to feel was "not really" homosexual feelings, but in some rather convoluted manner heterosexual feelings.

I.e, the unwaveringly clear feelings were seen by me, in the explanatory aftermath, as "untrue", they were always some sort of disguised heterosexual feelings.
Thus, the homosexual "surface" feelings weren't really mine at all; they were sham feelings that didn't truly belong to or define ME (even though they excited me deeply).
That is, I refused to integrate the unabashedly homosexual MENTAL CONTENT into my self-conception. That content hadn't truly in any essential manner anything to do with me. It was something "other" which would surely disappear once Miss Right made her entrance (and in my mind, those fantasies were "truly" signalling her coming in a disguised manner, rather than that they told me what they actually told me, namely that I was sexually attracted to other boys).

It is, for example, perfectly possible to regard yourself as a normal heterosexual boy even as you yelp in delight at the thought of another boy playing the "active" part, and that the excitement you feel of you and him together is just a disguised message of your own heterosexuality. That's how deep self-deception may work, how thoroughly it can twist your mind.


It may well be that other gays didn't manage to fool themselves so far; I'm not particularly intelligent..
 
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JamesU

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arildno said:
INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.


I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)
I was shocked to read this post. arildno just didn't seem like the person to have that um...lifestyle.
 
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Most of my friends who are gay, have known they were gay from the time they were small children. I know for some it was a struggle to conform to hetero society, tho they gave it there best shot. I can only imagine how hard life was for them at that time. Today they move around society with relative ease, but sill keep in mind, of the places they must avoid.
We have a gay couple who moved onto my block a few years ago. And my other neighbor was so stupid as to say to me, " As long as they stay away form my children, I'm fine with it". I had to laugh, her children are female. :rolleyes:
 

Moonbear

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Astronuc said:
I think what Moonbear is getting at is the fact that a gay man does not behave aggressively toward a woman, in general, but rather behaves in a gentlemanly way. On the other hand, I get the impression that far too many heterosexual men behave in a more aggressive manner.

At the risk of generalizing, I think single women are looking for that 'perfect gentleman' with whom they can develop a 'secure' relationship in which they can release that primal scream (I'm using arildno's words here). This is the basic mating pattern. If a woman is going to invest in a relationship in which she will bear children, I expect that she will want the man to be around for a long time - i.e. lifetime.
Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex. Well, it's pretty obvious why once it was revealed that he's gay, he had no sexual feelings for her, just that deep fondness Arildno talks about.

With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing. But, to a high school girl who doesn't know any better yet, he's just a refreshing break from all the rude boys who try to get away with anything they can before they've matured enough to know that's not what women want in a long-term relationship.
 
Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?
that you have very bad taste? :biggrin: Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive :smile:
 

Astronuc

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Moonbear said:
Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex.
Ah, that's the way I behaved with women when I was single. I never pressured any woman to have sex, actually it was the other way around for me - the girls/women were the ones who initiated physical contact or mentioned anything sexual.

I wanted no ambiguity in a relationship - I wanted the girl/woman, at the time, to know without a doubt that I was not interested in her solely for sex, but I was interested in her as a whole person - particularly with respect to her thoughts and feelings. A relationship between a man and woman is so much more than sex, and in fact being in a mature marriage (in my case, now with two teenagers) sex is a small component.

When I was single, my issue was and still is, that sex belongs within a committed relationship. I waited for the right woman to come along, and my wife has been my one and only initimate partner.

Moonbear said:
With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing.
When I was in my early teens (actually pre-teens as well), the girls were the ones who initiated 'making out', and that was as far as it went. However, in my late teenage years and early 20's, I was always careful not to encourage any woman - well, that is, until I met the woman I married. :smile:
 

arildno

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yomamma said:
I was shocked to read this post. arildno just didn't seem like the person to have that um...lifestyle.
What the heck do you think you know about my "lifestyle"??
I haven't revealed a damn thing about how I live my personal life, nor will I ever do, because that is personal on a level I'm not interested in revealing.
To say that you are "gay" is a lot less revealing about your person than to say you've been married for 25 years.

That you think it is very revealing is because you go about with a lot of fantasies and prejudices in your head which you think describes how "they" live.
 

arildno

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Ron_Damon said:
that you have very bad taste? :biggrin: Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive :smile:
Give me a sharp, jagged, angled body not quite fitting together due to all that ferocity straining to get free. What should I do with a soft, curved pillow-body seamlessly joined together? :confused:
 

arildno

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hypatia said:
Most of my friends who are gay, have known they were gay from the time they were small children. I know for some it was a struggle to conform to hetero society, tho they gave it there best shot. I can only imagine how hard life was for them at that time. Today they move around society with relative ease, but sill keep in mind, of the places they must avoid.
We have a gay couple who moved onto my block a few years ago. And my other neighbor was so stupid as to say to me, " As long as they stay away form my children, I'm fine with it". I had to laugh, her children are female. :rolleyes:
Oh, I've known I've been DIFFERENT from other boys all my remembered life (say from the age of 4-5).
Now, I was never a girlish boy, I could never understand this fascination/repulsion thing other boys seemed to have towards girls.
I was totally indifferent to girls, and wanted to spend my time being with boys, like playing cowboy/indian, police/robber, football and all sorts of other boys' things. My boys' world was complete, and I was rather puzzled that the other boys seemed to need some sort of contact with girls as well.
And yes, there were times as a child when I thought of one friend as a more "special" friend than the others, even though I would be hard put to tell why I thought him special and wanted to be with him a lot more.

So, in that sense, now in the aftermath, I would say that I've been gay all my life, even as a child.
 

arildno

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Now, although it was a few other things I would have liked to have mentioned ,particularly on how I perceive straights to tend to think and the whole biology issue, I think it is about time to close off this particular thread.
There is, however, one rather important issue I'd like to broach, namely how different the roads to maturity gays experienced due to their different individualities.

I have, naturally enough, the best (least bad?) insight in how my road was; I would like to sketch how this contrasts with, but also has some similarities with how many other gays have experienced growing up.

Essentially, whereas my road was that of having to REALIZE I was gay, for many others, the dominant aspect was always that of ACCEPTING they were gay.
(And the individual gay's road will be some sort of mixture in between)
That is, whereas I had effected a sort of dissociation between my self and my emotions and was as it were, also totally out of touch with my own body, many other gays knew exactly what they were, how they felt, how their bodies reacted and struggled mightily to effect that dissociation I had undergone. That is, they were living in an emotional turmoil with intense, clearly recognized sexual desires coupled with bouts of severe self-condemnation.
For all purposes, they were already burning in hell, and wanted to get out of there by any means possible.
Finally though, many find out that it is their fundamental nature they are struggling with, being gay is absolutely natural to them, and that to try to be something else could at best be a state of self-castration (i.e, effectively where I was), or remain in permanent pain.

Note that a similarity between my own experience and these folks' experience is that when we finally understand or accept ourselves, the most striking, forceful aspect for us is how SELF-EVIDENT it becomes to us that we are gay, how deeply NATURAL it is to us.
That realization, or acceptance if you like, the experience of the self-evidence of our gay nature is, I think a lot stronger integrated in our adult identity sense than the straightness is integrated in heterosexuals.


You never went through this weird type of individual struggles against your own nature, you blossomed in a gradual manner quite distinct from the manner of gays.

Thus, I think it is natural, for example, that straights tend to think of their own sexuality as a distinct aspect of their own personalities (the most cherished flowers in them, perhaps), whereas gays have a tendency to think of their sexuality more like their life's essence even when sex is the furthest thing from their mind.

That, basically, was what I meant with "divergent mentalities", or at least, some of it.
 
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" i can tell you straight away"

lmao @ the wordplay

I understand what you mean man


Some people are just to damn caught up in themselves to look at someone, and identify them as gay, instead of getting to know you and see who you really are, i mean theres a big diffrence between gay and straight men.. but it's skin deep thats it. ( unless it's sexual lol )

I knowing a couple gay men, and I have no problem just chillen and hanging out with them in public. Cause there fun to be around..and im not classifying them, when i say " there".


I respect your ability to be so opened with people about these issues

stay up.
 
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arildno

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I'm glad you're mature enough to see that there are as many differences among gays as there are among straight, and that you can enjoy yourself in either 's company (within limits, of course..:wink:)

However, it might still be the case that there are some personality traits which are more commmonly found on one side of the fence than the other, and that that might be related to different experiences in growing up.

For example, take the case of gay men being "funny", jesters and such like.
It might be that since many gay men have had rather harrowing experiences in growing up, this may have born a commitment of having "a good time" on average stronger than that of "normal" straights. That is, they work harder at getting a good time, on average.

Note that there wouldn't really be anything necessarily "gay" about this; it is not uncommon that persons who have gone through a harrowing, life-threatening illness and who got well again say that they are now really appreciating what they were about to lose, and that they become more committed at living a "good" life than they were before.
 
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fuzzyfelt

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Very courageous, and I can imagine your relief.

arildno said:
there are some personality traits

One of my gay friends rues missing out on the neatness trait. :smile:
 

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