Remove cancer with centrifugal forces?

[kolleamm]

Would it be possible to remove cancer from blood samples with the aid of centrifugal forces to separate it out by weight?
I do realize cells can have similar densities but what if the machine was really precise?

 

[BillTre]

More likely would be to bind the cancer cells with specific anti-cancer cell antibodies.
The antibodies could be linked to beads which could then be removed by density of magnets, or maybe other methods.
The catch would getting antibodies specific to the cancer cells but not to others.

 

[kolleamm]

More likely would be to bind the cancer cells with specific anti-cancer cell antibodies.
The antibodies could be linked to beads which could then be removed by density of magnets, or maybe other methods.
The catch would getting antibodies specific to the cancer cells but not to others.

That would be ideal but how hard would it be to produce such cells even if we knew their exact design?

 

[BillTre]

Do you mean produce the antibodies?

 

[kolleamm]

Do you mean produce the antibodies?

Yes or to engineer them

 

[DaveE]

That would be ideal but how hard would it be to produce such cells even if we knew their exact design?

It's hard. But people are working on this and making progress. CAR-T therapy is an example of using a patient's immune system to fight some types of cancer. This therapy exists today and is useful for the right patients/cancers.

BTW, no one will want to sort the cancer cells, like in a centrifuge, they'll just kill them in-situ.

 

[Drakkith]

Would it be possible to remove cancer from blood samples with the aid of centrifugal forces to separate it out by weight?
I do realize cells can have similar densities but what if the machine was really precise?

How many cells are we talking about? You're going to need a LOT of cells to make a new layer in a centrifuge. Probably more than a person will likely be able to survive with.

 

[kolleamm]

they'll just kill them in-situ.

That would be the most ideal way yes but for that you would need to engineer cells etc...
My solution proposes that we just filter them out somehow with the aid of a centrifuge.

How many cells are we talking about? You're going to need a LOT of cells to make a new layer in a centrifuge. Probably more than a person will likely be able to survive with.

The person wouldn't be placed in a centrifuge, their blood would go into a machine similar to one used for dialysis, then the cancer would be removed with a centrifuge and the blood circulated back in.

 

[DaveE]

for that you would need to engineer cells etc...

Normally all you need to do is identify them as foreign to the immune system, then your body will kill them. The difficult part is identifying cells that are cancerous and not targeting healthy cells. The killing part isn't too hard.

Anyway, I'm certainly no expert, but if you want to understand this you really need to study pathophysiology and the immune system for a while. There's a reason doctors and scientists have to spend a lot of time in schools, it's pretty complicated. This is all stuff that really couldn't be done 20-30 years ago, and people were pretty smart back then too.

 

[Drakkith]

The person wouldn't be placed in a centrifuge, their blood would go into a machine similar to one used for dialysis, then the cancer would be removed with a centrifuge and the blood circulated back in.

I realize that. But if we consider a vial or test tube with a few mL of blood, there's probably not enough cancer cells circulating to make their own layer that you could then remove.

 

[Rive]

Something like this?

It is a diagnostic tool and I thin there are some issues in scaling it up as treatment.

 

[BillTre]

That would be ideal but how hard would it be to produce such cells even if we knew their exact design?

There are now lots of ways to make antibodies, but they are rather technical and not easy to explain here. Some don't even use immune system cells.
However, getting the specificity for the bad cells and not the good ones will be the problem.
It is possible to sort through many clones of antibody producing cells until you find some with the specificity you want. This is the monoclonal antibody approach.

It would be very unusual to be able to design an antibody from their chemistry up. Without knowing what the antigen is it would be impossible. Immunizations can do this because this is what the immune system does normally.

You need a good screening (or selection) scheme to find the idea antibody producing cells.
This requires the appropriate biological material for immunizing and screening.

That would be the most ideal way yes but for that you would need to engineer cells etc...
My solution proposes that we just filter them out somehow with the aid of a centrifuge.

Using a centrifuge in this way will not be an effective treatment for cancer. You would be treating partions of the blood volume as batches. The remaining blood would have un-removed cancer cells and would mix with any of the previously centrifuged blood put back in the patient. The un-removed cancer cells would continue to divide. The population would not be eradicated with this method.

An antibody filtration process (more of a continuous process rather then a batch) is more approachable technically, but would still have problem of filtered and unfiltered blood mixing.

In situ approaches (inside the patient), described by @DaveE, are being tried out. using antibodies tolabel the cancer cells with either things to kill the cancer cells directly (like toxins or radioactive atoms), or indirectly antibodies carrying other molecules activated by things like light or infrared or possible magnetic fields like in an MRI.
There are probably additional ways to do this.

 

[kolleamm]

The remaining blood would have un-removed cancer cells and would mix with any of the previously centrifuged blood put back in the patient. The un-removed cancer cells would continue to divide. The population would not be eradicated with this method.

It would at least slow down the cancer no? Similar to how dialysis can help but not fully solve the problem.

 

[Drakkith]

It would at least slow down the cancer no? Similar to how dialysis can help but not fully solve the problem.

What cancer? I'm not sure what cancers live primarily in blood vessels. Even blood cancers are typically found in lymph nodes and bone marrow. As far as I am aware, the circulatory system usually serves more as a transport system for cancers cells to migrate, not somewhere for them to live and divide.

 

[kolleamm]

What cancer? I'm not sure what cancers live primarily in blood vessels. Even blood cancers are typically found in lymph nodes and bone marrow. As far as I am aware, the circulatory system usually serves more as a transport system for cancers cells to migrate, not somewhere for them to live and divide.

I'm no expert on this topic, but that is interesting to know.

 

[Drakkith]

I'm no expert on this topic, but that is interesting to know.

I'm no expert either. If you can find a cancer that mainly inhabits your circulatory system please let me know.

 

[TeethWhitener]

I'm no expert either. If you can find a cancer that mainly inhabits your circulatory system please let me know.

Leukemia and lymphoma come to mind. For good measure, here’s a wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumors_of_the_hematopoietic_and_lymphoid_tissues

 

[DaveE]

Leukemia and lymphoma come to mind. For good measure, here’s a wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumors_of_the_hematopoietic_and_lymphoid_tissues

It's in your blood, but it comes from your bone marrow. Just like your normal blood cells.

 

[Drakkith]

Leukemia and lymphoma come to mind. For good measure, here’s a wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumors_of_the_hematopoietic_and_lymphoid_tissues

Like DaveE said, those are 'spilled' into your blood, but my understanding was that they come from your marrow and perhaps your lymph nodes.

 

[BillTre]

There are lots of cell types in the immune system.
Each cell type can become a different kind of cancer cell. Some cell types may be able to become more than one type of cancer cell because mutating different genes may lead them to a cancerous state by different mutational paths.
Some of the cell types change through a developmental process from another cell type.
Different cell types could behave differently, wrt where in the body they spend their time.
Some are know for being in the blood, floating around the body, but then able to leave the circulation and patrol other tissues looking for pathogens or cancer cells. Some cells go to immune system organs, like lymph nodes, and interact with other immune cells to activate them in various ways. Cells in other tissues can be considered as a reservoir separate from the blood.

Any of these cell types (except cells like red blood cells which don't divide) can become cancerous, so you can get a variety of cancers.
All this is very complicated.
A mutational wrench that gets thrown into a cell's molecular control mechanism can mess it up in a number of ways.

A problem with cancer is that, to some extent, each of these cancers has to be researched and treated as a different disease.

 

[pinball1970]

Would it be possible to remove cancer from blood samples with the aid of centrifugal forces to separate it out by weight?
I do realize cells can have similar densities but what if the machine was really precise?

You posted the dialysis thread too? Hope things are ok.

 

[kolleamm]

Sadly my father passed away last year from lymphoma.
If removing cancer cells from the blood can't cure it perhaps 3D printing/growing new organs might?

 

[Laroxe]

We already have machines (Apheresis) that can separate the different cell components of the blood using centrifugal force and these are used in Autologous stem cell transplants in a variety of cancer treatments. The techniques are used to allow more aggressive treatments with cytotoxic drugs or radiotherapy, at doses which effectively destroy the immune system, which can then be rescued with the transplant.

While the main blood components can be separated, the machines are not able to recognise which cells are malignant, so there is always the risk of contamination of the infused stem cells with some malignant cells.
Apparently this happens less often than you would think but the reason for this isn't clear. It may be that the preparation for the collection of the stem cells, which increases the population in circulation, reduces the number of abnormal cells in circulation. The stem cells might be collected during the rest period between cycles of chemotherapy, which selectively kills the malignant cells, or the number of malignant cells in circulation might be very low and varies with the type of cancer being treated. It's possible that some of the malignant cells, because of their abnormalities, might be more fragile and sensitive to the effects of this procedure and as the immune system is repopulated it might effectively clear remaining abnormal cells. However this remains a risk and some transplants do fail, and it's also true that the procedure itself carries significant risks.

It used to be primarily used in malignancies that effected the blood, bone marrow or lymphatic tissues but as Dr.s have become more adept in using this procedure and managing the risks involved, it is being used more commonly and for a wider range of cancers.

https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/apheresis
https://www.lls.org/treatment/types...antation/autologous-stem-cell-transplantation