News Republican Debate: Who Impressed You?

[Ivan Seeking]

That seems a very odd thing to say this far out. Especially given the history of unpredictability in primaries.

Not for Republicans. You're thinking of the Democrats.

It's especially seems odd to think that Romney is the only viable candidate. The only reason he even has a chance is the popular belief that he would be most likely to defeat Obama, and how desperate and urgent that goal is to so many Republicans.

I see him as the only candidate the Republicans would nominate who isn't a nut. If you want to beat Obama, you will need someone at least as moderate as Romney.

Put Palin or Bachman or Paul in there, or any tea party extremist. Obama would LOVE that.

 

[Al68]

I see him as the only candidate the Republicans would nominate who isn't a nut. If you want to beat Obama, you will need someone at least as moderate as Romney.

Put Palin or Bachman or Paul in there, or any tea party extremist. Obama would LOVE that.

I would agree with that, if you replace "nut" and "tea party extremist" with "depicted as a nut by the media" and "depicted as an extremist by the media".

How candidates are depicted by the media does impact electability, whether the depiction is accurate or not, and must be taken into account, unfortunately.

 

[BobG]

I don't think the GOP Presidential Candidate has been seen as a front runner yet.

It is pretty late to start from scratch. By now candidates need to be getting the money machine in place.

True. At this point, it's all about raising money. We'll have a front runner about Jul 15 - when candidates announce their second quarter fundraising.

Early hints: Romney raised less than $20 million. Pawlenty, Huntsman, Paul have raised somewhere around $4 million. The other candidates aren't giving out early hints.

I'll be surprised if Romney doesn't have a huge lead in fundraising, even given the vagueness of "less than $20 million".

GOP presidential candidates tally up second-quarter fundraising

Second quarter fundraising in 2007 for comparison: Five candidates raised over $10 million.

I think the key to the Republican nomination will be getting the endorsement of Sarah Palin (since I'm almost sure she's not running). I think a good strategy would be for one of the candidates to offer to make her Ambassador to Russia. Heck, she could even work from home!

 

[BobG]

September 7 debate:

Perry entering the race is the best thing that ever happened to Romney - at least debate wise. The fact that Perry is leading Romney in the polls and could actually beat him is problematic. But Romney looks a lot more like a real person than he did back in 2008. I'd still feel like a drunken bimbo to ignore his first Presidential campaign ... but he looked so manly last night!

I still don't know enough about Perry, but my initial impression is that I don't like him. Something about the Texas accent and the occasional 'we done it's' just bother me. At least he didn't back off of things he was already on the record for. They may be damaging, but they were going to be damaging anyway and he didn't want to make the same mistakes Romney consistently made in 2008 - mistakes that just made Romney look like a wimp.

We have too many candidates at these debates. We should get to vote one candidate off at the end of each debate. Gingrich would be a good first choice. He's the only candidate more annoying than Ron Paul. Santorum would be a good second choice. He's a non-entity and just fails to make much impression at all.

I'd keep Huntsman and Cain around a while. Both present themselves well (which is an improvement for Cain from his first debate) and have at least some possibility of being discovered and moving up in the polls because of their debate performances - Huntsman probably more so than Cain. I could even vote for Huntsman.

Bachmann and Paul did about as expected, but who cared? Romney and Perry kind of stole the show and finally seem to be providing a race that could help Republicans instead of just making all of them look a little smaller.

 

[WhoWee]

Romney seems to be in control - slow and steady - in spite of attacks by Perry - IMO.

I want to put this into print - to see how it looks:

Romney - Gingrich 2012

Truth be told - I just want to see Newt debate Biden.

 

[BobG]

Some candidates just don't handle debates well.

Rick Perry:

I think Americans just don't know sometimes which Mitt Romney they're dealing with. Is it the Mitt Romney that was on the side of against the Second Amendment before he was for the Second Amendment? Was it—was before he was before the social programs, from the standpoint of he was for standing up for Roe v. Wade before he was against Roe v. Wade? He was for Race to the Top, he's for Obamacare, and now he's against it. I mean, we'll wait until tomorrow and—and—and see which Mitt Romney we're really talking to tonight.

That's not quite Palinesque, since Palin's problem is she can't tolerate seconds of silence while she thinks about the question. Instead, she tosses out a string of mindless fragments until she finds a fragment that might get a little traction.

Perry knew what he wanted to say, but his words gave you the Fourier transform of his message instead of the time domain version of his message. That can happen to anyone that speaks a lot, whether a prestigious candidate or just a lowly teacher.

Still, the brightest points for Perry, so far, have been the attacks from Bachmann and Santorum. They have a knack for making sure everyone knows Perry isn't really a bonafide Tea Party wacko.

He just isn't good enough in debates to make a good case for himself.

 

[lisab]

Some candidates just don't handle debates well.

Rick Perry:


That's not quite Palinesque, since Palin's problem is she can't tolerate seconds of silence while she thinks about the question. Instead, she tosses out a string of mindless fragments until she finds a fragment that might get a little traction.

Perry knew what he wanted to say, but his words gave you the Fourier transform of his message instead of the time domain version of his message. That can happen to anyone that speaks a lot, whether a prestigious candidate or just a lowly teacher.

Still, the brightest points for Perry, so far, have been the attacks from Bachmann and Santorum. They have a knack for making sure everyone knows Perry isn't really a bonafide Tea Party wacko.

He just isn't good enough in debates to make a good case for himself.

 

[mheslep]

...

He just isn't good enough in debates to make a good case for himself.

Apparently he had the ability to destroy the able K. B. Hutchinson in the Governor's primary race, but he's not showing much debate strength here so far.

 

[mheslep]

Romney seems to be in control - slow and steady - in spite of attacks by Perry - IMO.

I want to put this into print - to see how it looks:

Romney - Gingrich 2012

Truth be told - I just want to see Newt debate Biden.

That's only possible if Senator Rubio declines, as he's the first choice. I guy who could deliver Florida's ~27 electoral votes and who many would already like to see as a ~2016 President is impossible to pass up. I doubt Gingrich can deliver a state that's in play, plus a Gingrich is not needed to beat Biden in VP debates.

 

[WhoWee]

That's only possible if Senator Rubio declines, as he's the first choice. I guy who could deliver Florida's ~27 electoral votes and who many would already like to see as a ~2016 President is impossible to pass up. I doubt Gingrich can deliver a state that's in play, plus a Gingrich is not needed to beat Biden in VP debates.

Personally, I think it's too soon to tap Rubio - or any first term legislator (one of the major problems with Obama). This is the same reason I don't want to see Chris Christie or Nikki Haley in the mix. They all need to establish track records.

I would like to see some polls of Gingrich versus Rubio. Gingrich has the requisite experience on the Hill to fix a lot of problems - Rubio may face bi-partisan resentment and add negative value. I think Newt is the ideal Vice President candidate - he would "complete" any of the front-runners and help restore confidence.

 

[mheslep]

Personally, I think it's too soon to tap Rubio - or any first term legislator (one of the major problems with Obama). This is the same reason I don't want to see Chris Christie or Nikki Haley in the mix. They all need to establish track records.

I would like to see some polls of Gingrich versus Rubio. Gingrich has the requisite experience on the Hill to fix a lot of problems - Rubio may face bi-partisan resentment and add negative value. I think Newt is the ideal Vice President candidate - he would "complete" any of the front-runners and help restore confidence.

The first task of the VP candidate is to help the head of the ticket win. Deliver votes. Smart as he his, do you really think Newt, with all of his Tiffany purchases and marriages, does that better than Marco?

 

[WhoWee]

The first task of the VP candidate is to help the head of the ticket win. Deliver votes. Smart as he his, do you really think Newt, with all of his Tiffany purchases and marriages, does that better than Marco?

Again, I'd like to see a poll.

I think Rubio is perceived as the Latin Eric Cantor by the general population and a token choice by others. Newt probably has the strongest name recognition in the field and a proven track record in Congress.

If the presentation is - here's Romney, a moderate with strong business experience and a track record as Governor to point and over here his partner former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, creative, experienced, intelligent, balanced, and able to keep Mitt out of trouble in Washington - it's a strong ticket. If the Left wants to attack him for spending too much on jewelry - the President will face similar scrutiny for the First Lady's pattern of travel on separate jets at minimum. Newt wasn't spending taxpayer funds.

 

[BobG]

A Vice President candidate might bring in one state. The main job of VP candidates is not to be a disaster - not to be a Palin or an Eagleton.

Gingrich would be exactly the type of VP candidate you'd want to avoid. While Biden may say silly things fairly often (and even get some dirty looks from the President during extra swearing in ceremonies), he has an easy personality to like. Gingrich has an easy personality to hate.

 

[mheslep]

... and able to keep Mitt out of trouble in Washington - it's a strong ticket.

Newt has ample experience, but that is not the same thing as knowing how to stay out of trouble. How do you get credit Newt as able to help there given his ethics sanction, that he was more or less forced to resign by his own as Speaker, and nearly single-handedly blew up his own current campaign with the "“right-wing social engineering" comment.

 

[WhoWee]

Newt has ample experience, but that is not the same thing as knowing how to stay out of trouble. How do you get credit Newt as able to help there given his ethics sanction, that he was more or less forced to resign by his own as Speaker, and nearly single-handedly blew up his own current campaign with the "“right-wing social engineering" comment.

I think it's safe to assume he's learned from life experiences. There are 2 issues on the table; 1.) getting elected, and 2.) governing.

The current President's experience as a community organizer, and the strategy of equating McCain with Bush, enabled him to get elected, but his absolute lack of management experience has forced him to rely on Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi to drive legislation (a success from their perspective). However, President Obama has failed to deliver on his specific promises to fix the economy, close Gitmo, etc.

While Newt might not deliver as many votes as Rubio among Hispanics and strict Conservatives, I think we'll pull center and left voters that Rubio might not draw. As for Governing, Newt is by far the strongest person on the stage - and the most knowledgeable - IMO. I'll concede he's not electable as the President - but Vice President is another story.

 

[mheslep]

I think it's safe to assume he's learned from life experiences. ...

Well he may very well have, but safe to assume? Many people never do.

I don't think the strength of a VP candidate Newt would be in keeping a former governor and business exec out of trouble; he would provide other strengths. Given he'd be free of ever running for office again (~too old in 2020), he could sharply contrast his ticket's issues with the opposition's, allowing the presidential candidate to remain presidential.

 

[WhoWee]

Well he may very well have, but safe to assume? Many people never do.

I don't think the strength of a VP candidate Newt would be in keeping a former governor and business exec out of trouble; he would provide other strengths. Given he'd be free of ever running for office again (~too old in 2020), he could sharply contrast his ticket's issues with the opposition's, allowing the presidential candidate to remain presidential.

When I commented about keeping out of trouble, I meant politically/strategically on the Hill and with regards to foreign policy more than in a Clinton/scandal way. As you've pointed out, Newt is at the end of his political life. I think he would be very determined to make things happen - whereas a Rubio MIGHT be more concerned about his (own) future in politics.

 

[skippy1729]

So what is going on with the Florida straw poll? On the face of it, I was (very) pleasantly (very) suprised by Cain's victory; but also (very) puzzled. His performance at the debate (where he got about half the face time of Romney or Perry) was good but nothing spectacular. In view of the performance of Perry and Bachman it seems fair to say he got over 60% of the Tea Party vote. Perhaps they are figuring out that Bachman is unelectable and Perry is not what they hoped for.

Any other ideas?

Skippy

PS I hope he can use this victory to raise some cash and turn this race around.

 

[mheslep]

So what is going on with the Florida straw poll? On the face of it, I was (very) pleasantly (very) suprised by Cain's victory; but also (very) puzzled. His performance at the debate (where he got about half the face time of Romney or Perry) was good but nothing spectacular. In view of the performance of Perry and Bachman it seems fair to say he got over 60% of the Tea Party vote. Perhaps they are figuring out that Bachman is unelectable and Perry is not what they hoped for...

Yes he's been competent in the debates and he is a self-made man, an authentic rags to riches story. If he had held elected office, any office, I think he'd be leading the field now in popular polls as well as that Florida straw poll. If he somehow manages to raise his game and earn the nomination I think he'd destroy Obama/Biden, carrying even some heavily blue states.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes he's been competent in the debates and he is a self-made man, an authentic rags to riches story. If he had held elected office, any office, I think he'd be leading the field now in popular polls as well as that Florida straw poll. If he somehow manages to raise his game and earn the nomination I think he'd destroy Obama/Biden, carrying even some heavily blue states.

Cain made a few mistakes in the early debate regarding foreign policy. However, I think people are receptive to his honesty regarding the matter. He didn't try to spin his behavior and instead went to work learning more about the subject. He's another candidate that would be enhanced/completed by an elder statesman running mate.

 

[DoggerDan]

Cain made a few mistakes in the early debate regarding foreign policy. However, I think people are receptive to his honesty regarding the matter. He didn't try to spin his behavior and instead went to work learning more about the subject. He's another candidate that would be enhanced/completed by an elder statesman running mate.

He's got my attention. I appreciate his straightforwardness and matter-of-fact way of looking at the issues.

 

[DoggerDan]

If he had held elected office, any office, I think he'd be leading the field now in popular polls as well as that Florida straw poll.

Given the sad state of affairs in American politics, that's probably to his advantage, particularly if he's elected.

 

[BobG]

Some candidates just don't handle debates well.

Rick Perry:


He just isn't good enough in debates to make a good case for himself.

Apparently he had the ability to destroy the able K. B. Hutchinson in the Governor's primary race, but he's not showing much debate strength here so far.

While he's definitely not helping himself in the debates, his performances apparently aren't bad enough to destroy his campaign. He still leads in the polls, but his margin has decreased from 12 points to 7 points.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh12rep.htm

Gingrich is definitely on the upswing and Cain's ratings have even improved. Apparently, people have given up on the 'hope' that Palin will run and Paul supporters are begginning to admit he isn't really a viable candidate.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Bachmann blames Arab Spring on Obama's 'weakness'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44726590/ns/politics-decision_2012/"
I suppose Bachmann is no longer a serious contender so this doesn't matter much any more. I have always advised policitions you can't do yourself harm by saying bad things about foreigners and you can't help yourself by saying good things about them. Bachmann understands this. Most Americans hear the words blame and Arab in the same sentence and count it wisdom.

 

[mheslep]

While he's definitely not helping himself in the debates, his performances apparently aren't bad enough to destroy his campaign. He still leads in the polls, but his margin has decreased from 12 points to 7 points.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh12rep.htm

This week down by four. Cain into third place.
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh12rep.htm

 

[Borg]

This week down by four. Cain into third place.
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh12rep.htm

I read that list too fast. For a moment, I thought that Freddie Kruger was in the running. Not that it would be too surprising this year.

 

[mheslep]

I would like to see former Gov. Gary Johnson higher on the list. He seems to have the best performance record in office, both in terms of economic results and for doing what he said he would do.

“My next-door neighbor's two dogs have created more shovel-ready jobs than this current administration,” he shot back.

Any residents of NM, then or since, care to comment? The man was twice elected Governor in a blue state and produced an excellent record. Why does a back bench congress woman like Bachman take a higher rank in the polls? I want a recount.

According to one New Mexico paper, "Johnson left the state fiscally solid," and was "arguably the most popular governor of the decade . . . leaving the state with a $1 billion budget surplus." The Washington Times has reported that when Johnson left office, "the size of state government had been substantially reduced and New Mexico was enjoying a large budget surplus."

Johnson positions
Fiscal:

• End excessive spending, bloated stimulus programs, unnecessary farm subsidies, and earmarks.
• Reassess the role of the federal government and identify responsibilities that can be met more efficiently by the private sector.
• Recognize that you can't have limited government at home, but big government abroad.

Foreign policy:

• With Osama bin Laden now killed and after 10 years of fighting, U.S. forces should leave Afghanistan's challenges to the Afghan people.
• Saddam Hussein has been out of power in Iraq for nearly eight years. America must leave so Iraq can have a chance to grow into a responsible member of the world community.
• Without a clear goal for our military actions in Libya, fighting rages on, and the American people are footing the bill.
• Decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union, American troops remain scattered throughout Europe. It is time to reevaluate these deployments.

Immigration:

• Simplify legal immigration
• Tackle illegal immigration

Works for me.

 

[Char. Limit]

Bachmann blames Arab Spring on Obama's 'weakness'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44726590/ns/politics-decision_2012/"
I suppose Bachmann is no longer a serious contender so this doesn't matter much any more. I have always advised policitions you can't do yourself harm by saying bad things about foreigners and you can't help yourself by saying good things about them. Bachmann understands this. Most Americans hear the words blame and Arab in the same sentence and count it wisdom.

Sad, isn't it?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

With all of the talk about Chris Cristie I was wondering if he may reconsider. He was just on Piers Morgan who asked if he was 100% certain that he won't run in 2012. Cristie stated clearly that he is 100% certain that he won't run. That was just after saying that he is brutally honest. So that seems to make it final.

So far, I really like Cristie. I don't know a lot about his policies yet but I like him personally. And in however many interviews I've seen with him, perhaps a half dozen or more, he hasn't said one thing that made me cringe as I do with most Republican candidates these days.

 

[WhoWee]

With all of the talk about Chris Cristie I was wondering if he may reconsider. He was just on Piers Morgan who asked if he was 100% certain that he won't run in 2012. Cristie stated clearly that he is 100% certain that he won't run. That was just after saying that he is brutally honest. So that seems to make it final.

So far, I really like Cristie. I don't know a lot about his policies yet but I like him personally. And in however many interviews I've seen with him, perhaps a half dozen or more, he hasn't said one thing that made me cringe as I do with most Republican candidates these days.

I think he needs to finish his first term as Governor - same with Rubio (Congress).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think he needs to finish his first term as Governor - same with Rubio (Congress).

I can imagine him being the next Republican that gets my vote. However, I would be concerned about his weight. For a man his age, that much extra weight calls into question, in a real sense, his longevity. He should go on a serious diet.

He reminds me of John Goodman when he played Speaker of the House, in the show, The West Wing. Cristie has that same pervasive, commanding, voluminous presense. Ironically, too much weight loss could detract from that.

 

[DoggerDan]

I've noticed how Cain is holding his own, but behind Romney. Yet the only polls I've seen compare him against other Republican candidates.

Do you think the Republicans realize that if Romney wins the primary they'll probably loose the race, but if Cain wins the primary they'll probably win the race?

The best party candidate isn't the most popular one in the party, but the one who stands the greatest chance of defeating the other party's candidate.

 

[WhoWee]

I've noticed how Cain is holding his own, but behind Romney. Yet the only polls I've seen compare him against other Republican candidates.

Do you think the Republicans realize that if Romney wins the primary they'll probably loose the race, but if Cain wins the primary they'll probably win the race?

The best party candidate isn't the most popular one in the party, but the one who stands the greatest chance of defeating the other party's candidate.

Why do you think Cain is more electable than Romney?

 

[mheslep]

I've noticed how Cain is holding his own, but behind Romney. Yet the only polls I've seen compare him against other Republican candidates.
...

Cain's at least tied with Romney, with a couple polls showing Cain in the lead, 26 to 24%.
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/cain-romney-polls-2012/2011/10/05/id/413390

 

[Proton Soup]

not that i think she's got a snowball's chance, but Bachmann is apparently a regular recipient of contributions from the Koch Brothers, who are finding themselves under quite a bit of fire at the moment because of their Iran deals.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.php?cmte=C00236489&cycle=2008

and Iran ain't even the half of it: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

lots of old stuff, and apparently this is being timed for the political cycle. but sure to be poison for many a candidate and issue affected by these guys.

 

[mheslep]

not that i think she's got a snowball's chance, but Bachmann is apparently a regular recipient of contributions from the Koch Brothers, ...

$5000 for this election cycle? So?

 

[Proton Soup]

$5000 for this election cycle? So?

how much does it cost to corrupt people?

 

[DoggerDan]

Why do you think Cain is more electable than Romney?

In the republication primaries, he's not.

In the general election, he is.

 

[WhoWee]

In the republication primaries, he's not.

In the general election, he is.

I know what you meant - "electable" implies success in the general election. Accordingly, I'll restate my question with greater specificity - why do you think Cain is more electable than Romney in the general election against the current President (Obama)?

 

[skippy1729]

...I'll restate my question with greater specificity - why do you think Cain is more electable than Romney in the general election against the current President (Obama)?

1. Impact on the African-American vote. One third of Obama's margin of victory was due to increased African-American turnout (see table 1 of http://poq.oxfordjournals.org/content/73/5/995.full.pdf+html). Even if this increased turnout was not a one time event, it is inconceivable that Obama could hold on to 96% of the African-American vote against Cain.

2. Romneycare, anti-abortion credentials and his religion will cause a small percentage of the Republican base to stay home. I have made the acquaintance of evangelicals who do not consider Romney a Christian and will not vote for him. There are extremists in every direction.

3. Cain is direct and up-front in the presentation of his ideas. Romney dances like a politician (as does Obama).

4. The 2008 election shows that experience as an elected does not carry too much weight. Cain's executive experience is comparable to Romney's and both exceed Obama's.

5. Romney and Obama come off as elitists, Cain does not.

Skippy

 

[Char. Limit]

He's the CEO of a corporation. How does he NOT come off as elitist to you?

They're kind of, you know, the elite.

 

[Proton Soup]

He's the CEO of a corporation. How does he NOT come off as elitist to you?

They're kind of, you know, the elite.

friends of mine used to talk about Sam Walton driving up to his stores in his old ford pickup. the employees loved the guy. this was back in the days when walmart was pushing made-in-the-usa products, too.

there's lots of non-elitist CEOs out there.

 

[skippy1729]

He's the CEO of a corporation. How does he NOT come off as elitist to you?

They're kind of, you know, the elite.

For me, an elitist is someone whose self-perceived image of their superiority oozes from every pore of their body. It has nothing to do with money. It is the "I am better and smarter than everyone else" attitude. I am not talking about confidence, I am talking about arrogance.

Skippy

 

[WhoWee]

For me, an elitist is someone whose self-perceived image of their superiority oozes from every pore of their body. It has nothing to do with money. It is the "I am better and smarter than everyone else" attitude. I am not talking about confidence, I am talking about arrogance.

Skippy

I get that vibe from the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

 

[mheslep]

He's the CEO of a corporation. How does he NOT come off as elitist to you?

No.

Cain was born in Memphis, Tennessee, son of Luther Cain, Jr. and his wife Lenora Davis. His mother was a cleaning woman and his father, who was raised on a farm, was a chauffeur. He grew up in Georgia. Cain graduated from Morehouse College in 1967 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in mathematics, and received a Master of Science degree in computer science from Purdue University in 1971, when he was also working full-time in ballistics for the U.S. Department of the Navy. As a civilian ballistics analyst, he was responsible for developing fire control systems for ships and fighter planes.

No scholarship to elite private prep schools in Hawaii, no Ivy League. There is however one thing that strikes me as arrogant about the man, and only one: why can he not be bothered to run for some lower state or federal office first? Where did he draw the go-directly-to-the-Presidency card?

 

[Vanadium 50]

why can he not be bothered to run for some lower state or federal office first? Where did he draw the go-directly-to-the-Presidency card?

Hi did. He ran for senator and lost.

 

[WhoWee]

Romney/Gingrich 2012 is looking better by the day! Newt even specified (on CNN to Blitzer 10/5/11) the answer would'nt be "no" to a VP offer if he doesn't win the nomination.

 

[Proton Soup]

i'm really liking the alligator idea. in fact, i would go further and have sharks with laser beams patrolling the coasts.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/10/06/334170/herman-cain-top-10/

if he won the nomination, i think the Reps would have to spend a lot of time coaching him.

 

[mheslep]

Hi did. He ran for senator and lost.

Thanks, I missed that, which changes my opinion for the better.

 

[BobG]

i'm really liking the alligator idea. in fact, i would go further and have sharks with laser beams patrolling the coasts.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/10/06/334170/herman-cain-top-10/

if he won the nomination, i think the Reps would have to spend a lot of time coaching him.

I don't think alligators would survive in the Southwestern United States. They're not very aggressive, anyway. They would only attack people wandering too close to their eggs.

Cain doesn't know the difference between alligators and crocodiles!

Actually, even crocodiles would require a pretty expensive moat. The moat would have to be a mini-habitat. But the mini-habitat wouldn't have to be maintained all that well, because crocodiles don't mind brackish water.