Resistance proportional with velocity problem

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on calculating the distance and time an object with a mass of 10 kg travels while decelerating from an initial velocity of 50 km/s to a final velocity of 10 km/s, under the influence of a resistance force proportional to the square of its velocity. Participants utilized kinetic energy equations and differential equations to derive solutions, with one user calculating a time of 4 seconds and a distance of approximately 62.76 meters, while another user arrived at a time of 0.8 seconds and a distance of 16.09 meters. The conversation highlights the importance of correctly applying differential equations and finite-difference methods for accurate results.

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Levilaon
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Homework Statement


If we have object with mass 10 kg traveling at starting velocity of 50 km/s and one force of resistance that is equal to v^2 of object's velocity how can we calculate distance and time in which that object travels until it gets to velocity of 10 km/s.

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution



Kinetic energy at start - energy lost due to work of resistance = final kinetic energy
1/2 m v0^2 - ? = 1/2 m vf^2

As you can see I have trouble calculating work done by resistance. At start it will be starting velocity squared times distance but it changes every moment as velocity changes...
 
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Levilaon said:

Homework Statement


If we have object with mass 10 kg traveling at starting velocity of 50 km/s and one force of resistance that is equal to v^2 of object's velocity how can we calculate distance and time in which that object travels until it gets to velocity of 10 km/s.

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution



Kinetic energy at start - energy lost due to work of resistance = final kinetic energy
1/2 m v0^2 - ? = 1/2 m vf^2

As you can see I have trouble calculating work done by resistance. At start it will be starting velocity squared times distance but it changes every moment as velocity changes...
Force = mass × acceleration, so if the force of resistance is ##k v^2## (for some constant ##k##) then we have ##m\, dv/dt = -k v^2##, a simple differential equation to determine ##v = v(t).## When you know ##v(t)## you can integrate to get ##x(t)##.
 
I solved it, first I wrote function v=f(t) then found ▲t by simply putting in final velocity. Then I integrated that function with domain ▲t to get distance.
 
Levilaon said:
I solved it, first I wrote function v=f(t) then found ▲t by simply putting in final velocity. Then I integrated that function with domain ▲t to get distance.

For the sake of interest, what did you get?
 
Ray Vickson said:
For the sake of interest, what did you get?

I got that time it took object to slow from 50 to10 km/s is 4 s and distance it passed during that time is 62.76 m.
 
Levilaon said:
I got that time it took object to slow from 50 to10 km/s is 4 s and distance it passed during that time is 62.76 m.

I got ##t = 4/5## sec and distance = ##10 \ln(5) \doteq 16.09## m.
 
I think you got something wrong.
 
Levilaon said:
I think you got something wrong.

Show your work, so we can decide.
 
Ray Vickson said:
I got ##t = 4/5## sec and distance = ##10 \ln(5) \doteq 16.09## m.
Can you try calculate time it would take it to come to 0 velocity. If your technique is valid you should get error or infty.
EDIT: ok I did something bad, it never comes to infinity it goes to limes.
 
  • #10
Ray Vickson said:
Show your work, so we can decide.

Ok with my calculations it comes again that time is infinite until velocity reach 0, what did you get?

I solved it like this: v=f(t), v₁=50, v₂=10, m=10, Fr=f(t)²

f(t)=v₁-a·∆t => f(t)=v₁- (f(t)²/m)·∆t => (∆t/m)⋅f(t)²+f(t)-v₁ = 0

So when velocity is f(t)=v₂ then: ∆t=(-10⋅f(t)+500)/f(t)² = 4s

And for distance: s=∫{0 to 4}(-1+√(1+4⋅(∆t/m)⋅v₁)/(2⋅∆t/m) d∆t ≈ 62.76
 
  • #11
Levilaon said:
Ok with my calculations it comes again that time is infinite until velocity reach 0, what did you get?

I solved it like this: v=f(t), v₁=50, v₂=10, m=10, Fr=f(t)²

f(t)=v₁-a·∆t => f(t)=v₁- (f(t)²/m)·∆t => (∆t/m)⋅f(t)²+f(t)-v₁ = 0

So when velocity is f(t)=v₂ then: ∆t=(-10⋅f(t)+500)/f(t)² = 4s

And for distance: s=∫{0 to 4}(-1+√(1+4⋅(∆t/m)⋅v₁)/(2⋅∆t/m) d∆t ≈ 62.76

Your solution makes no sense and is incorrect. Do you know what is meant by a differential equation? Do you know how to solve the differential equation for v(t) in this problem? That was given in post #2.

If you do not know how to solve a differential equation, you can develop a finite-difference scheme to solve the problem approximately. For small ##\Delta t > 0## we have ##v(t+\Delta t) \doteq v(t) - \Delta t \cdot v(t)^2## (which becomes more and more nearly exact as ##\Delta t## gets smaller and smaller), so
$$ \begin{array}{rcl}
v(\Delta t) & \doteq &50 - \Delta t \cdot 50^2 \\
v(2 \Delta t)&\doteq& v(\Delta t) - \Delta t \cdot v(\Delta t)^2 \\
v(3 \Delta t) &\doteq& v(2 \Delta t) - \Delta t \cdot v(2 \Delta t)^2 \\
\vdots &\vdots & \vdots \\
v(N \Delta t) &\doteq & v((N-1) \Delta t) - \Delta t \cdot v((N-1) \Delta t)^2
\end{array}
$$
Be warned, however, that we need to take ##\Delta t ## very small to get any kind of decent accuracy. For example, we can take ##\Delta t = 1/1000 = 0.001## and ##N = 1000##, to get a good numerical solution over the interval ##0 \leq t \leq 1##, that is, at values ##t = 0, 0.001, 0.002, \ldots, 0.999, 1.000.## You could do all this in a spreadsheet.

There is also a simple exact formula for the solution ##v(t)##, but I think PF rules forbid me from telling you what it is.

Below is a plot of the 1000-point curve of ##v(t)##, and the constant function v=10; you can see that ##v(t)## reaches 10 at about ##t = 0.8## sec. That is exact when we use the true formula for the exact solution.

BTW: the solution never reaches 0 exactly, just as you claimed.
 

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  • #12
Ray Vickson said:
Your solution makes no sense and is incorrect. Do you know what is meant by a differential equation? Do you know how to solve the differential equation for v(t) in this problem? That was given in post #2.

If you do not know how to solve a differential equation, you can develop a finite-difference scheme to solve the problem approximately. For small ##\Delta t > 0## we have ##v(t+\Delta t) \doteq v(t) - \Delta t \cdot v(t)^2## (which becomes more and more nearly exact as ##\Delta t## gets smaller and smaller), so
$$ \begin{array}{rcl}
v(\Delta t) & \doteq &50 - \Delta t \cdot 50^2 \\
v(2 \Delta t)&\doteq& v(\Delta t) - \Delta t \cdot v(\Delta t)^2 \\
v(3 \Delta t) &\doteq& v(2 \Delta t) - \Delta t \cdot v(2 \Delta t)^2 \\
\vdots &\vdots & \vdots \\
v(N \Delta t) &\doteq & v((N-1) \Delta t) - \Delta t \cdot v((N-1) \Delta t)^2
\end{array}
$$
Be warned, however, that we need to take ##\Delta t ## very small to get any kind of decent accuracy. For example, we can take ##\Delta t = 1/1000 = 0.001## and ##N = 1000##, to get a good numerical solution over the interval ##0 \leq t \leq 1##, that is, at values ##t = 0, 0.001, 0.002, \ldots, 0.999, 1.000.## You could do all this in a spreadsheet.

There is also a simple exact formula for the solution ##v(t)##, but I think PF rules forbid me from telling you what it is.

Below is a plot of the 1000-point curve of ##v(t)##, and the constant function v=10; you can see that ##v(t)## reaches 10 at about ##t = 0.8## sec. That is exact when we use the true formula for the exact solution.

BTW: the solution never reaches 0 exactly, just as you claimed.
Ok I see, but I don't see mass in your equation.
I quote from your post:
"v(Δt)≐50−Δt⋅50^2
v(2Δt)≐v(Δt)−Δt⋅v(Δt)^2
..."
I believe it should be modified like this, after all acceleration is force/mass.
v(Δt)≐50−Δt⋅(50^2)/m
v(2Δt)≐v(Δt)−Δt⋅(v(Δt)^2)/m
...
Tell me if I am mistaken.
 
  • #13
Levilaon said:
Ok I see, but I don't see mass in your equation.
I quote from your post:
"v(Δt)≐50−Δt⋅50^2
v(2Δt)≐v(Δt)−Δt⋅v(Δt)^2
..."
I believe it should be modified like this, after all acceleration is force/mass.
v(Δt)≐50−Δt⋅(50^2)/m
v(2Δt)≐v(Δt)−Δt⋅(v(Δt)^2)/m
...
Tell me if I am mistaken.

You are correct.

The graph I attached is correct because it used the correct finite-difference method.
 

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