Rewriting of Gibbs Free Energy in Peksin (Equations 13.35/13.36)

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the equivalence of two formulations of Gibbs Free Energy as presented in Peskin's work. Participants explore the mathematical relationships and manipulations necessary to demonstrate this equivalence, while also addressing the context of the equations within the broader framework of thermodynamics and quantum field theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to show the equivalence of the two forms of Gibbs Free Energy given in Peskin, referencing specific equations and relations from the text.
  • Another participant suggests that the relation ##M \sim |t|^{\beta}## is necessary, but a third participant raises a concern that this assumption cannot be made a priori if the goal is to derive that relation.
  • A participant proposes a mathematical manipulation involving defining a function ##H(x)## to express one form of Gibbs Free Energy in terms of the other, ultimately leading to a proposed equivalence.
  • Subsequent replies indicate that the proposed manipulation is understood and appreciated by other participants, suggesting it works as intended.
  • There are clarifications regarding the authorship of the text, with some participants mistakenly attributing the work to Peskin instead of Peskin and Schroeder, leading to a brief discussion about the relevance of the texts in the context of thermal physics and quantum field theory.
  • One participant expresses familiarity with partition functions and Helmholtz free energy in particle QFT, questioning the role of Gibbs free energy in that context and the types of diagrams it generates.
  • Another participant notes that while different thermodynamic potentials are related by Legendre transformations, certain properties may be unique to specific potentials, citing the Jarzynski equality as an example.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the assumptions necessary for deriving the equivalence of the Gibbs Free Energy formulations. While some agree on the mathematical manipulations proposed, there is no consensus on the foundational assumptions required for the derivation.

Contextual Notes

There are references to specific equations and pages in Peskin's text, indicating that the discussion is deeply rooted in the material presented in that work. The participants also highlight the interconnectedness of concepts in thermodynamics and quantum field theory, but the implications of these connections remain unresolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying thermodynamics, quantum field theory, or mathematical physics, particularly in the context of Gibbs Free Energy and its applications in various physical theories.

thatboi
Messages
130
Reaction score
20
Hey all,
On page 446 in Peskin, he provides 2 different ways of writing the Gibbs Free Energy:
$$\textbf{G}(M,t) = M^{1+\delta}h(tM^{-1/\beta})$$, and $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = t^{\beta(1+\delta)}f(Mt^{-\beta})$$ where ##h## and ##f## are some initial condition functions that have a smooth limit as ##t\rightarrow 0 ##. My question is how to see that these 2 equations are equivalent. I figure there is a relation that goes like ##\rho_{m} = m^2/M^2## and ##\rho_{m}\sim t## where the first equivalence is from pg. 436 and the second relation is from pg. 445 but I still cannot seem to make it work.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
It's just that ##M \sim |t|^{\beta}## (cf. p. 441, Eq. (13.7)).
 
  • Love
Likes   Reactions: malawi_glenn
vanhees71 said:
It's just that ##M \sim |t|^{\beta}## (cf. p. 441, Eq. (13.7)).
But I thought the point of 13.35 and 13.36 were to derive 13.7 so we couldn't assume that relation a priori?
 
I don't know anything about the subject material in chapter 13 of Peskin. But maybe it's just some mathematical manipulations to show the equivalence of $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = M^{1+\delta}h(tM^{-1/\beta})$$ and $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = t^{\beta(1+\delta)}f(Mt^{-\beta}).$$

Define the function ##H(x)## by the relation ##h(x) \equiv x^p H(x)##, where ##p## is a number that we will specify shortly. Then, $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = M^{1+\delta}h(tM^{-1/\beta}) = M^{1+\delta}\left(tM^{-1/\beta}\right)^p H(tM^{-1/\beta}). $$ Let ##p = \beta(1+\delta)## so that $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = M^{[(1+\delta)-(1+\delta)]} t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H(tM^{-1/\beta}) = t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H(tM^{-1/\beta}).$$ Hence, $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H(tM^{-1/\beta}) =t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H\left[\left(Mt^{-\beta}\right)^{-1/\beta}\right] = t^{\beta(1+\delta)} f(Mt^{-\beta})$$ where ##f(Mt^{-\beta}) \equiv H\left[\left(Mt^{-\beta}\right)^{-1/\beta}\right]##.

Does this work?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: thatboi, malawi_glenn and vanhees71
thatboi said:
On page 446 in Peskin, he provides 2 different ways of writing the Gibbs Free Energy

You mean Peskin and Schroeder. Peskin is an altogether different book.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: malawi_glenn and Demystifier
George Jones said:
Peskin is an altogether different book.
Concepts of Elementary Particle Physics.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: malawi_glenn and George Jones
And Schroeder is Thermal physics ;)
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Demystifier
TSny said:
I don't know anything about the subject material in chapter 13 of Peskin. But maybe it's just some mathematical manipulations to show the equivalence of $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = M^{1+\delta}h(tM^{-1/\beta})$$ and $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = t^{\beta(1+\delta)}f(Mt^{-\beta}).$$

Define the function ##H(x)## by the relation ##h(x) \equiv x^p H(x)##, where ##p## is a number that we will specify shortly. Then, $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = M^{1+\delta}h(tM^{-1/\beta}) = M^{1+\delta}\left(tM^{-1/\beta}\right)^p H(tM^{-1/\beta}). $$ Let ##p = \beta(1+\delta)## so that $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = M^{[(1+\delta)-(1+\delta)]} t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H(tM^{-1/\beta}) = t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H(tM^{-1/\beta}).$$ Hence, $$\textbf{G}(M,t) = t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H(tM^{-1/\beta}) =t^{\beta(1+\delta)} H\left[\left(Mt^{-\beta}\right)^{-1/\beta}\right] = t^{\beta(1+\delta)} f(Mt^{-\beta})$$ where ##f(Mt^{-\beta}) \equiv H\left[\left(Mt^{-\beta}\right)^{-1/\beta}\right]##.

Does this work?
Yes great! I see now thanks a lot.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: TSny
malawi_glenn said:
And Schroeder is Thermal physics ;)
This explains why his QFT book talks about Gibbs free energy.
 
  • #10
QFT and many-body physics is so closely related that it is no surprise, if you find at least one chapter on it also in vacuum-QFT textbooks ;-).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Demystifier
  • #11
vanhees71 said:
QFT and many-body physics is so closely related that it is no surprise, if you find at least one chapter on it also in vacuum-QFT textbooks ;-).
I'm used to partition function ##Z## and closely related Helmholtz free energy ##F## (the relation is ##Z=e^{-\beta F}##) in particle QFT, but Gibbs free energy in particle QFT looks quite exotic to me. The Minkowski version of ##-\beta F## is ##iW[J]## which generates only connected Feynman diagrams. What kind of diagrams are generated by the Minkowski version of Gibbs free energy?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
  • #12
That's of course true, but which thermodynamical potential you address is not that important. They are all related by Legendre transformations.
 
  • #13
vanhees71 said:
That's of course true, but which thermodynamical potential you address is not that important. They are all related by Legendre transformations.
Sometimes it's important. For example the Jarzynski equality in non-equilibrium statistical physics
$$\left\langle e^{-\beta W}\right\rangle = e^{-\beta \Delta F}$$
is valid for ##F##, but, as far as I know, there is no analog for other thermodynamic potentials.

The ##F## in thermodynamics is in many ways analogous to the Lagrangian in mechanics, and Lagrangian has some special properties which other "energy" functions in mechanics don't have.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: gentzen and vanhees71

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K