Questions on RGB, CYMK and Cones in MKaku Forum Theory of Everything

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between color perception, spectral intensities, and color systems such as RGB and CYMK. Participants explore questions related to the perception of violet and magenta, the functioning of cones in the human retina, and the complexities of color representation in technology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • 8LPF16 questions the activity of rods and cones when perceiving violet light, noting that the blue cones have limited sensitivity to these wavelengths.
  • There is uncertainty about the spectrum of magenta, with 8LPF16 highlighting that it cannot be defined by a small range of wavelengths.
  • Monique shares response curves for different types of cones, questioning the differences between various sources and seeking clarification on which is accurate.
  • LPF challenges the terminology used for cones, suggesting that the "red" cone is actually more aligned with yellow, given its peak sensitivity.
  • Some participants note the complexity of human color perception, emphasizing that the names of cones are shorthand and that actual spectral responses cover broader ranges.
  • It is mentioned that the intensity-wavelength curves for RGB phosphors do not align with human cone response curves, leading to implications for color representation.
  • LPF emphasizes the importance of light in the discussion of magenta, suggesting a focus on photons rather than perception.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the definitions and perceptions of colors, particularly violet and magenta. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on the wavelength definitions or the terminology used for cones.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the definitions of color terms and the assumptions made about cone sensitivity. The discussion highlights the complexity of color perception and the variability in sources regarding cone response curves.

Nereid
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In the Theory of Everything board in the MKaku Forum, 8LPF16 asked about colours (see "question" thread), and the discussion got onto the relationship between colour perception, spectral intensities, and the colour systems used in printing, TVs and computer monitors, etc.

8LPF16 asked some questions I couldn't answer, and am myself curious about. Can anyone here help?

1) Violet, or purple (English colour names are far from unambiguous!) is a small range of wavelengths around ~400 nm. However, the 'blue' cones have only limited sensitivity to these wavelengths, and the 'green' and 'red' ones virtually none. On my computer screen I get a purple colour with ~60% blue and ~40% red (using the RGB system). The intensity of the colour doesn't seem to matter much, until it become so faint that all colours get washed out (i.e. only the rods are stimulated) What's happening, in terms of rod and cone activity, when you look at the violet part of the rainbow?

2) Magenta (as in the M in the CYMK system) is clearly not 'a small range of wavelengths around x nm', which is how any colour in the rainbow could be described. In this case, intensity does seem to matter; as it gets faint (or dark), magenta appears to me to become more purplish. What is the spectrum of a magenta-coloured object?
(This may be a question better directed to someone in a technology board)

LPF also asks some other interesting questions; perhaps she'll post them here.
 
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They are not at all that different, the only difference is that blue has a higher absorption in one.
 
Monique,

The main question was to define the wavelength of magenta - any help?

I am a Generalist, apparently that led Nereid to assume I would be female. (No)

I had also mentioned to Nereid that the "red" cone is actually yellow. 579nm peak is 7nm from spectral yellow @572nm. Orange just starts around 614nm, why the insistance on calling that cone red?

LPF

P.S. That is a lovely picture of you, if the threads on this forum included photos, I'm sure your "view/reply" ratio would be 100%.
:wink:
 
colour perception in humans is complicated!

With the help of Ms Google, I found a couple or three webpages which go a long way to helping me understand this topic:
http://www.ntsc-tv.com/ntsc-main-05.htm
http://www.cs.sfu.ca/undergrad/CourseMaterials/CMPT365/material/notes/Chap3/Chap3.3/Chap3.3.html
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/specrend/

I certainly hadn't appreciated how complicated the topic of human colour perception is!

Some comments on LPF's questions:
- the names 'blue', 'green', and 'red' for the cones are shorthand; the actual spectral responses cover ~>100nm
- for example, a person with non-functioning blue and green cones (and defective rods) could perceive almost the entire spectrum (apparently the red cones do respond to light around 420nm, though the sensitivity is <10% that at the peak, ~590nm); however, if only the blue cones were functional, the person would be blind to all colours longer than ~520nm (what their subjective perception would be is a different question)
- the intensity-wavelength curves for the RGB phosphors in TVs and computer monitors do not match the response curves of the human cones. This has all kinds of interesting implications.
- the spectrum of a magenta object will have significant blue and red components. There is no unique 'magenta' intensity-wavelength curve; in this respect, magenta is no different from any other colour (as perceived by humans), including blue, green, and red.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
magenta

via photons...

not perception,

LIGHT !



LPF
 

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