Ricci tensor from this action

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the Ricci tensor from a specific action that couples gravity to a scalar field. Participants explore the mathematical steps involved in varying the action with respect to the metric and the scalar field, addressing potential errors in the derivation process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an action and derives expressions related to the Ricci tensor, questioning the validity of their results due to index manipulation issues.
  • Another participant suggests that the action may resemble a general scalar-tensor theory of gravity, prompting a discussion about its origins.
  • A later reply identifies a potential error in the variation process, specifically regarding the overloading of indices when taking variations.
  • Further calculations are provided, leading to a corrected expression for the Ricci tensor, indicating that the earlier derivation was flawed.
  • One participant acknowledges the mistake in their earlier calculations but expresses uncertainty about the reasoning behind it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the initial derivation, as one participant identifies an error while others provide alternative calculations. The discussion reflects differing views on the correctness of the initial approach and the subsequent corrections.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the handling of indices during variations, which may have contributed to the confusion in deriving the Ricci tensor. The discussion does not resolve the broader implications of the action presented.

ergospherical
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Here is an action for a theory which couples gravity to a field in this way:$$S = \int d^4 x \ \sqrt{-g} e^{\Phi} (R + g^{ab} \Phi_{;a} \Phi_{;b})$$I determine\begin{align*}
\frac{\partial L}{\partial \phi} &= \sqrt{-g} e^{\Phi} (R + g^{ab} \Phi_{;a} \Phi_{;b}) \\
\nabla_a \frac{\partial L}{\partial(\nabla_a \Phi)} &= 2\sqrt{-g} e^{\Phi} g^{ab} (\Phi_{;a} \Phi_{;b} + \Phi_{;ba})
\end{align*}giving ##R = g^{ab} (\Phi_{;a} \Phi_{;b} + 2\Phi_{;ba})##. Now vary the action with respect to the metric,\begin{align*}
\frac{\delta S}{\delta g^{ab}} &= -\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{-g} e^{\Phi} g_{ab} (R + g^{cd} \Phi_{;c} \Phi_{;d}) + \sqrt{-g} e^{\Phi}(\frac{\delta R}{\delta g^{ab}} + \Phi_{;a} \Phi_{;b}) \end{align*}Put ##\delta R_{ab} / \delta g^{ab} = R_{ab}## and insert the previous equation for ##R##. Zero the variation and cancel the common factor ##\sqrt{-g} e^{\Phi}##,$$0 = -g_{ab} g^{cd} (\Phi_{;c} \Phi_{;d} + \Phi_{;dc}) + R_{ab} + \Phi_{;a} \Phi_{;b}$$This should give ##R_{ab} = \Phi_{;ba}## but it doesn't work out that way because the indices are mangled. Can somebody see the error?
 
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ergospherical said:
Here is an action for a theory
Is there a particular source from which you got this? It looks like it might be the general action for one kind of scalar-tensor theory of gravity.
 
It's just a very old exam. I presumed it was just something arbitrary the examiner thought up, but may have some application.
 
Not sure if you eventually managed to figure it out but your error is you're overloading indices when taking the variations. Generally speaking, it's better to give separate indices for the field you're taking variations with respect to, compared to the indices in the quantity you're computing variations of.

We have $$\frac{\delta S}{\delta \nabla_c \Phi} = 2\sqrt{-g}e^{\Phi}\nabla^c \Phi,$$ hence $$\nabla_c\frac{\delta S}{\delta \nabla_c \Phi} = 2\sqrt{-g}e^{\Phi}\nabla^c \nabla_c \Phi.$$ Thus $$R = 2\nabla^a \nabla_a \Phi - \nabla^a \Phi \nabla_a \Phi.$$

We can now compute ##\frac{\delta S}{\delta g^{ab}}##. The general expression you calculated is indeed correct: $$R_{cd} = \frac{\delta S}{\delta g^{cd}} = \sqrt{-g}e^{\Phi}\left(\frac{\delta R}{\delta g^{cd}} - \frac{1}{2}g_{cd}R + \nabla_c \Phi \nabla_d \Phi - \frac{1}{2}g_{cd}\nabla^e \Phi \nabla_e \Phi\right).$$

We have $$\frac{\delta R}{\delta g^{cd}} = 2\nabla_c \nabla_d \Phi - \nabla_c \Phi \nabla_d \Phi.$$ Plugging in for ##R## we find the desired result $$R_{ab} = \nabla_a \nabla_b \Phi.$$

Hope that helps!
 
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Yeah, it was a mistake in ##\nabla_a \frac{\partial L}{\partial(\nabla_a \Phi)}##. Hard for me to figure out why it happened. :)
 

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