Right to Bear Arms: US Laws Explained

[Anttech]

One thing to consider about us Americans is the fact that a lot of blood was spilled in order for us to retain the rights we currently have.

Its the same in Europe, France, Germany, UK.. Yet we don't have a gun culture

 

[RVBuckeye]

You guys carry on shooting each other, maybe its a Darwinian way of reducing the criminal element in your country? Who knows

Could be a part of it in the meantime. Some might be paranoia.

As far as defending ourselves against a tyrannical government...One day you might come to appreciate it. If we go down, more than likely, you will too.

 

[crazycalhoun]

Its the same in Europe, France, Germany, UK.. Yet we don't have a gun culture

Nor did Europeans have much in the way of popular irregular military service in their formative nation-state years. Deckart has a point, the United States is unique in the principles governing its institution and its conduct of war.

 

[russ_watters]

Besides as I said before the right to revolution is not really a right, revolutions by definition are illegal. Overthrowing any government by force of arms is illegal so to have it as a lawful right makes little sense.

Good point - it is a logical contradiction.

The Gatling gun was not used by the US military until 1865, and saw its first major use in the slaughter of native Americans. Custer screwed up and left his back at Ft. Lincoln, or the Little Big Horn might have turned out a bit differently.

Dr Gatling developed his gun early in the 1860's, but the originals had lots of problems that had to be resolved before the design would be accepted by the military. The gun saw very limited us in the CW.

Oops - thanks for the correction. Must be a popular myth I fell for.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't see the contradiction, nor how your point differs...or maybe you don't mean it to differ.

Ehh, I probably just misread.

Gun crime is not an epidemic in this country.

Given the fact that our murder rate is among the highest in the world - and orders of magnitude higher than in most developed countries, I don't see how you can think it isn't a problem.

A responsible citizen is not the threat to society, the criminal is.

That is true by definition, of course, but what does it really mean or matter? IMO, if we could drop the overall gun-crime rate by 90% (plus the kid-shooting-himself-in-the-head rate) at the cost of taking guns from responsible gun owners, that is a reasonable thing to do. A fair trade.

 

[crazycalhoun]

Ehh, I probably just misread. Given the fact that our murder rate is among the highest in the world - and orders of magnitude higher than in most developed countries, I don't see how you can think it isn't a problem.

Maybe because the US loses more lives annually to heart disease and car accidents. I have to agree, we cannot call this an epidemic based on the violent crime rate alone--not without declaring deaths due to heart disease and auto accidents epidemic as well.

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe because the US loses more lives annually to heart disease and car accidents. I have to agree, we cannot call this an epidemic based on the violent crime rate alone--not without declaring deaths due to heart disease and auto accidents epidemic as well.

Fine. Car accident deaths are an epidemic. But more specifically, they are a problem that we need to work hard to correct (and we do). So then would you agree that the gun crime rate (even regardless of the fact that it is far higher than typical) is also a problem that we should work to correct?

 

[selfAdjoint]

Given the fact that our murder rate is among the highest in the world - and orders of magnitude higher than in most developed countries, I don't see how you can think it isn't a problem.

Aside from the distinction between an epidemic and a problem (rather loose usage for you, Russ), the murder rate in nearly all US cities has dropped sharply since the 1980s. The murder rate outside the cities has always been much lower. What is the gun death rate in the bottom 90% of counties by population?

 

[crazycalhoun]

Fine. Car accident deaths are an epidemic. But more specifically, they are a problem that we need to work hard to correct (and we do). So then would you agree that the gun crime rate (even regardless of the fact that it is far higher than typical) is also a problem that we should work to correct?

Speaking broadly to the violent crime rate, yes. With all the urgency we attach to the auto accident epidemic but a bit more than heart disease, since homicide is the second leading killer of the 15-24 age group (fortunately, still far below the auto accident fatality rate).

 

[Orefa]

Car accidents are a red herring. War and terrorism are not a problem, look at cars! Smoking deaths are not a problem, look at cars! Gun crimes are not a problem, look at cars! In spite of their various problems, cars are useful and desirable compared to war, terrorism, smoking and guns.

 

[deckart]

Well, if and when wrongful deaths caused by guns in the hands of licensed citizens becomes a leading cause of fatalities in this country, then we will deal with it. We have a process for dealing with those types of issues. But unitl then, this is a lot of talk about a non-issue IMO. And a lot of that it brought about by people who have no familiarity with firearms at all. Just fear and ignorance.

 

[crazycalhoun]

Car accidents are a red herring.

If you read the exchange, you'll note that I was objecting Russ's description of gun violence's contribution to the violent crime rate as epidemic based entirely on the rate. I'd further argue that there is little if any further economic cost beyond the loss of life that would justify considering gun related violence anymore epidemic than heart disease. War and terrorism, on the other hand, have marked social psychological effects that do translate into real economic and social problems.

 

[russ_watters]

Well, if and when wrongful deaths caused by guns in the hands of licensed citizens becomes a leading cause of fatalities in this country, then we will deal with it.

Since when is the total number of fatalities what determines the response? 9/11 "only" killed 3,000 people, but we went to war over it.

Besides, depending on your demographic (as pointed out above), gun violence can be one of the leading causes of death in the US.

 

[deckart]

I don't have a statistic but I'm curious as to how many wrongful deaths can be attributed to licensed firearm owners.

 

[crazycalhoun]

Since when is the total number of fatalities what determines the response? 9/11 "only" killed 3,000 people, but we went to war over it.

Besides, depending on your demographic (as pointed out above), gun violence can be one of the leading causes of death in the US.

Well it is one of the leading causes of death across all age demographics, and the leading cause of death for youths between 13 and 20 in urban areas (notably California). On the other hand, that demographic is closely tied to the gang violence issue, which apparently hasn't achieved a political degree of interest far beyond other crime issues.

 

[deckart]

Well this is an interesting stat:

FACT: Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 56% of total 2002 gun deaths nationwide. In 2002, the U.S. firearm suicide total was 17,108, a 1% increase from 2001 numbers. Total gun suicides in Illinois for 2002 were 466, a decrease of 8% from the 2001 numbers. Most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms.

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.

Basically, most of those people who die from gunshots were going to off themselves anyway.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Well this is an interesting stat:

FACT: Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 56% of total 2002 gun deaths nationwide. In 2002, the U.S. firearm suicide total was 17,108, a 1% increase from 2001 numbers. Total gun suicides in Illinois for 2002 were 466, a decrease of 8% from the 2001 numbers. Most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms.

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.

Basically, most of those people who die from gunshots were going to off themselves anyway.

Does it say whether or not they include accidental self shootings? Legally if you kill yourself, whether on purpose or not, it's called a suicide.

 

[crazycalhoun]

Does it say whether or not they include accidental self shootings? Legally if you kill yourself, whether on purpose or not, it's called a suicide.

Um, no its not.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Um, no its not.

I knew someone who killed himself on accident. It was labeled a suicide by the police.

 

[deckart]

I imagine it depends on the circumstance. Legally there are 3 categories for the causes of death: Accidental, Homicide, and Suicide. A person could accidently kill himself by putting a loaded gun to his own head but it would probably be ruled a suicide.

Anyhow, with suicide being the number one cause of death with a firearm, I believe those numbers should be thrown out of the gun violence argument. That cuts the statistics at least in half.

 

[crazycalhoun]

I knew someone who killed himself on accident. It was labeled a suicide by the police.

Yeah, and I knew someone who knew the law. Unless the authorities rule the death a willful act of self-homicide, it's not suicide.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

OK what's this one then, This is a famous story from the Fortean Times Bizarre suicides section and details the events of a particulalrly thorny "suicide" true story too:

A son who fed up with his parents constant arguing and seeing that his father often held his unloaded shutgun at his wife and feigned shooting here decided it had gone to far and loaded the shot gun; shortly afterwards overcome with depression he threw himself off the building.

At this moment the couple who where arguing ferociously below set the now loaded shot gun off hitting the guy as he fell and killing him, a few seconds later he was caught by the suicide nets on the building. Police eventually put the case down as death by misadventure? What would you call it

Interesting story that if a little off topic.

 

[RVBuckeye]

OK what's this one then, This is a famous story from the Fortean Times Bizarre suicides section and details the events of a particulalrly thorny "suicide" true story too:

A son who fed up with his parents constant arguing and seeing that his father often held his unloaded shutgun at his wife and feigned shooting here decided it had gone to far and loaded the shot gun; shortly afterwards overcome with depression he threw himself off the building.

At this moment the couple who where arguing ferociously below set the now loaded shot gun off hitting the guy as he fell and killing him, a few seconds later he was caught by the suicide nets on the building. Police eventually put the case down as death by misadventure? What would you call it

Interesting story that if a little off topic.

I'd say it was that poor guys time to die. If he made it alive to the net, the police probably would have dropped him, causing his death. Misadventure just about sums it up. Thanks.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I'd say it was that poor guys time to die. If he made it alive to the net, the police probably would have dropped him, causing his death. Misadventure just about sums it up. Thanks.

Na dead when the shotgun hit, big gaping hole type wound, tends to kill people; dead before he hit the net a few seconds later.

Imagine being the coroner on that one though

 

[RVBuckeye]

Na dead when the shotgun hit, big gaping hole type wound, tends to kill people;

I get that. Maybe I should have said, "If you take the gun out of the equation, the net would have broken and he would have died anyway." But I didn't want you to mistake my intent of humor, for a pro-gun/anti-gun comment.
It would have been a mess though.

 

[turbo]

Interesting story that if a little off topic.

It's a little TOO interesting and it has been repeated over and over, getting resurrected and dusted off every few years. The Fortean Times is not exactly the place to expect any factual stories.

http://www.funehumor.com/fun_doc1/fun_0139.shtml

 

[deckart]

Well, this discussion went to hell.

 

[turbo]

Well, this discussion went to hell.

You had a point with the suicide thing, though.

Suidice will only grow in attractiveness to the terminally ill. If someone has an incurable disease, and is dying in pain, it is easier to commit suicide than to get a doctor's help in ldying. Conservative politicians are trying desperately to take away your right to die with some dignity, while letting health care and insurance costs spiral out of control, so that less-affluent patients cannot pay for hospice care and pain-control programs without bankrupting their families.