Ron Paul's Candidacy - Should You Vote For Him?

[Galteeth]

I suppose I don't understand the appeal of objectivism.

Objectivism is not the same thing as libertarianism, and even libertarianism has radically different meanings to different people. (It's historical meaning was left-wing anarchism.)

 

[ThinkToday]

Objectivism is not the same thing as libertarianism, and even libertarianism has radically different meanings to different people. (It's historical meaning was left-wing anarchism.)

Meaning is depended on many things as wiki notes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

I tend to feel it falls along the last example in Wiki for the US "It is only in the United States that the term libertarian is commonly associated with those who have conservative positions on economic issues and liberal positions on social issues, going by the common meanings of "conservative" and "liberal" in the United States."

 

[ThinkToday]

If anything, that's an undersell. All the polling I've seen shows Paul losing to Obama in a general election match-up by about 10 pts. That's tens of millions that would vote for Paul in a general election against Obama.

I think you're confusing the "anybody but Obama" vote as being support for Paul's ideas.

 

[SixNein]

Objectivism is not the same thing as libertarianism, and even libertarianism has radically different meanings to different people. (It's historical meaning was left-wing anarchism.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Influential_libertarian_philosophers

 

[Hobin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Influential_libertarian_philosophers

Libertarianism != Ayn Randism.

 

[Gokul43201]

I think you're confusing the "anybody but Obama" vote as being support for Paul's ideas.

I think you're confusing what I said with what you think I said. I made no quantitative statements about support for Paul's ideas.

 

[SixNein]

Libertarianism != Ayn Randism.

But it is quite influenced by it.

Ethical egoism seems to be the central theme of libertarianism.

 

[jduster]

Libertarianism is not "Objectivism" (Rand's philosophy).

Rand, throughout her career, harshly criticized libertarians for ripping apart her ideas, and using only parts of them, rather than embracing it as a whole.

Nevertheless, Rand's philosophy of Objectivism was neither philosophy nor objective.

 

[turbo]

Paul's supporters hope to hijack the Maine GOP primary this week, as published in this weekend's local papers. He might have some other reason for staying in the race this late, but I don't know what it could be, since he is far out of the running. He can't hope to win too many extra delegates (though he did well in the Maine GOP caucuses), but he may be sticking in the hunt to get a little extra influence headed into the GOP nationals.

 

[John Creighto]

Libertarianism != Ayn Randism.

And baby blue is not sky blue but they are both blue.

 

[mheslep]

But it is quite influenced by it.

Ethical egoism seems to be the central theme of libertarianism.

Ethical egoism? What does that mean, and on what basis is that the theme of libertarian philosophy?

 

[turbo]

Ron Paul supporters jammed the Maine state Republican party convention this weekend and grabbed a share of the top spots, hoping to give Paul leverage in Tampa.

http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/Delegate-fight-Snowe-LePage-today-at-convention.html

Romney's camp is not happy.

 

[SixNein]

Ethical egoism? What does that mean, and on what basis is that the theme of libertarian philosophy?

Ethical egoism is usually the moral defense and rallying cry of libertarianism.

Ethical egoism is the normative theory that the promotion of one’s own good is in accordance with morality. In the strong version, it is held that it is always moral to promote one’s own good, and it is never moral not to promote it. In the weak version, it is said that although it is always moral to promote one’s own good, it is not necessarily never moral to not. That is, there may be conditions in which the avoidance of personal interest may be a moral action.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/egoism/#SH2b

 

[John Creighto]

Ethical egoism is usually the moral defense and rallying cry of libertarianism.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/egoism/#SH2b

I think if we are going to discuss libertarian theory we probably should start another thread. If we want to discuss Ayn Rand specifically we do have a thread about here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=478792

I do wish to say that, I think that trying to simplify Rand's ethic's to ethical egoism is an over simplification. Rand's ethics are partly deotological in that she believes in certain rights (As a minimum the right to life). She also (although she denies it) is to a degree consequentialist in that she justifies her ethical systems by contrasting them against the consequences of collectivism. She also calls her ethics "Objective" in that she views the market as an objective criteria to measure value.

 

[SixNein]

I think if we are going to discuss libertarian theory we probably should start another thread. If we want to discuss Ayn Rand specifically we do have a thread about here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=478792

I do wish to say that, I think that trying to simplify Rand's ethic's to ethical egoism is an over simplification. Rand's ethics are partly deotological in that she believes in certain rights (As a minimum the right to life). She also (although she denies it) is to a degree consequentialist in that she justifies her ethical systems by contrasting them against the consequences of collectivism. She also calls her ethics "Objective" in that she views the market as an objective criteria to measure value.

Ethical egoism is a little more generalized. But if you wish to read an Ayn Rand defense of it, I would recommend: "The Virtue of Selfishness: A New Concept of Egoism"

But back to the point of the thread...

Ron Paul took too high a dosage of ethical egoism. In my opinion, government problems have to be classified. Some problems require an individualist approach, and some problems require a collectivist approach. I don't like extremes in either direction.

In my honest opinion, the government really needs pragmatic people.

 

[Galteeth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Influential_libertarian_philosophers

I'm pretty sure Bakunin and Rand would be mortal enemies.

 

[Dotini]

In my honest opinion, the government really needs pragmatic people.

Sounds good, but does this imply that sometimes it's okay to obey the Constitution and sometimes it's fine not to?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Hobin]

Sounds good, but does this imply that sometimes it's okay to obey the Constitution and sometimes it's fine not to?

I don't think so. This would, after all, set a horrible precedent, and it's quite pragmatic to keep this in mind.

 

[turbo]

Ron Paul's supporters took control of the state GOP convention and handed Paul 21 of Maine's 24 national delegates. The Romney camp claims that the tactics of the Paul camp were "illegal" and that the delegates should not be seated by the RNC. It's going to be messy in Tampa.

http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/for-now-pauliticsprevail_2012-05-06.html

 

[Dotini]

Ron Paul's supporters took control of the state GOP convention and handed Paul 21 of Maine's 24 national delegates. The Romney camp claims that the tactics of the Paul camp were "illegal" and that the delegates should not be seated by the RNC. It's going to be messy in Tampa.

http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/for-now-pauliticsprevail_2012-05-06.html

Illegal according to what? Robert's Rules of Order? I doubt it, because that's the chief weapon of Paul's wily supporters against the entrenched GOP establishment, who are really the ones guilty of the dirty tricks. I know. I've seen it first hand.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/President/2012/0506/Ron-Paul-wins-big-in-Maine-and-Nevada <--- Confirmation of our tactics

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[turbo]

Illegal according to what? Robert's Rules of Order? I doubt it, because that's the chief weapon of Paul's wily supporters against the entrenched GOP establishment, who are really the ones guilty of the dirty tricks.

Respectfully,
Steve

I doubt that there were breaches of Robert's Rules of Order, since Romney's top lawyer was at the convention, rule-book in hand. The Establishment got out-flanked, and now they are crying foul.

During the caucuses, the results from many pro-Paul areas were not included in the tallies, and the results of the Washington County caucuses (heavily pro-Paul) were not included, the results of the Waldo County caucuses were not included, nor the results of some cities including Waterville that went 21-5 for Paul. The Maine Republican Party indeed played some dirty tricks, steering the caucus victory to Romney by disenfranchising as many Paul supporters as possible. It's coming back to haunt them.

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-02-15/politics/31062266_1_paul-s-campaign-ron-paul-vote-count

 

[John Creighto]

I'm pretty sure Bakunin and Rand would be mortal enemies.

This is off topic. Anyway, one should not doubt that these two philosophers had wildly different viewpoints. However, they both advocate minimizing the coercive aspect of the state and hence the title of libertarian is appropriate. We should distinguish between Left-Libertarianism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism
where Bakunin would be classified within and right-libertarianism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism

where such people as Ron-Paul, Ayn Rand and Robert Nozick would fall.
Rand would differ with Bukunin on two accounts. The first account, being that Bukunin would have a greater concern about the common good than Rand. The second is that Ayn Rand called Anarchy unworkable because she believed that the first Gang to get strong enough would take control.

Her statement of this view makes me question her background/knowledge with regards to Anarchist philosophy because most Anarchist philosophers of historical note (including Bukunin) advocate some form of cooperation, although Bukunin for some paradoxical reason classified the “Post State” cooperation as “a-political”.

Nozick gives good justification for Rand’s view of the role of the state where he argues that personal protection is a natural monopoly. Such natural equilibriums fits well into Proudhon’s paradigm where freedom can exist only in the context of the state and to obtain maximum freedom one must find the best balance between Statism and liberty.

 

[SixNein]

Sounds good, but does this imply that sometimes it's okay to obey the Constitution and sometimes it's fine not to?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

I'm not sure where you arrive at such a conclusion. Of course, some people believe that they and they alone are the ultimate authority on the constitution. In these arguments, they all too often forget the role of the 3rd branch.

Suppose that Ron Paul really did believe that government wasn't acting within its constitutional bounds. Why doesn't he challenge it in court?

A lot of people didn't believe Obamacare was constitutional, so they challenged it in court. The Supreme court has heard the case, and it will be resolved soon one way or another.

 

[mheslep]

I'm not sure where you arrive at such a conclusion. Of course, some people believe that they and they alone are the ultimate authority on the constitution. In these arguments, they all too often forget the role of the 3rd branch.

Suppose that Ron Paul really did believe that government wasn't acting within its constitutional bounds. Why doesn't he challenge it in court?
...

Or, should he get elected he could simply do what FDR did and threaten to pack to the court with as many justices as he needs to make it to his liking.

 

[SixNein]

Or, should he get elected he could simply do what FDR did and threaten to pack to the court with as many justices as he needs to make it to his liking.

And he would be no more successful then FDR in accomplishing such a task. The legislator would have to be willing to pass such legislation.

But he could still pack the courts the traditional way by nominating justices akin to his views. Currently, we have a fairly conservative court (5-4). Of course, justices have to play along too. Justice Stephens didn't retire when he did because of his poor mental state.

 

[mheslep]

And he would be no more successful then FDR in accomplishing such a task. The legislator would have to be willing to pass such legislation.

But he could still pack the courts the traditional way by nominating justices akin to his views. Currently, we have a fairly conservative court (5-4). Of course, justices have to play along too. Justice Stephens didn't retire when he did because of his poor mental state.

FDR's court packing threat, which included legislation that became law, was utterly successful.

Initial New Deal legislation attempts were demolished by the Hughes court. Subsequently FDR introduced his court packing legislation by way of one his fireside chats. The passage of the 1937 court packing plan allowed the addition of six judges to the existing nine. Afterwards, the Court began wholesale approval of New Deal legislation, culminating in Wickard v. Filburn where the court sided the federal government assertion of the power to prevent a farmer from growing wheat for his own, private, consumption.

 

[Galteeth]

I doubt that there were breaches of Robert's Rules of Order, since Romney's top lawyer was at the convention, rule-book in hand. The Establishment got out-flanked, and now they are crying foul.

During the caucuses, the results from many pro-Paul areas were not included in the tallies, and the results of the Washington County caucuses (heavily pro-Paul) were not included, the results of the Waldo County caucuses were not included, nor the results of some cities including Waterville that went 21-5 for Paul. The Maine Republican Party indeed played some dirty tricks, steering the caucus victory to Romney by disenfranchising as many Paul supporters as possible. It's coming back to haunt them.

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-02-15/politics/31062266_1_paul-s-campaign-ron-paul-vote-count

In my observation, the republican establishment seems to care very little for the official rules. The intersection of actual law versus party by-law is complex. Party by-law is not necessarily law, although it can be. There is also a difference between illegal according to party law, illegal according to election law (state and/or federal), and "not in the spirit of fairness" (which is probably what Romney's lawyers are whining about).

 

[SixNein]

FDR's court packing threat, which included legislation that became law, was utterly successful.

Initial New Deal legislation attempts were demolished by the Hughes court. Subsequently FDR introduced his court packing legislation by way of one his fireside chats. The passage of the 1937 court packing plan allowed the addition of six judges to the existing nine. Afterwards, the Court began wholesale approval of New Deal legislation, culminating in Wickard v. Filburn where the court sided the federal government assertion of the power to prevent a farmer from growing wheat for his own, private, consumption.

Did you read all of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937#Bill.27s_failure

Your source doesn't agree with you.

and it goes on to say

President Roosevelt lost the Court-packing battle, but he won the war for control of the Supreme Court ... not by any novel legislation, but by serving in office for more than twelve years, and appointing eight of the nine Justices of the Court. In this way the Constitution provides for ultimate responsibility of the Court to the political branches of government. [Yet] it was the United States Senate - a political body if there ever was one - who stepped in and saved the independence of the judiciary ... in Franklin Roosevelt's Court-packing plan in 1937.

 

[mheslep]

Did you read all of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937#Bill.27s_failure

Your source doesn't agree with you.

Again I said threat, and the outcomes I stated are correct (though I was wrong about the 1937 bill actually becoming law). Rooselvelt held his fireside chat on March 9th, 1937, announcing his intentions to pack the court. Afterwards, the next ten continuous New Deal related supreme court cases, decided March through May 1937, were in Roosevelt's favor, a complete reversal of the 1936 blowout 5 loss to 1 win blowout. The court packing law was defeated later in the summer of 1936 after the opposition ship had already sunk.

 

[Office_Shredder]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57437868-503544/ron-paul-wins-majority-of-delegates-in-minnesota/?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.4

Ron Paul playing the delegate game with panache