Scale in mathematics vs in quantum physics

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the differences between scale concepts in quantum field theories (QFTs) and geometry, particularly in the context of the Standard Model (SM). It is established that QFTs are scale-dependent, with classical theories like pure Yang-Mills and QCD exhibiting scale invariance that is broken upon quantization. The conversation highlights the incompatibility of scale invariance in classical field theories and the scale dependence introduced by mass terms and renormalization processes. The participants explore the implications of Minkowski spacetime and R4 in relation to scale invariance, concluding that realistic QFTs are not scale invariant due to inherent anomalies.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Quantum Field Theory (QFT)
  • Familiarity with concepts of scale invariance and scale dependence
  • Knowledge of renormalization techniques in particle physics
  • Basic principles of Minkowski spacetime and Euclidean geometry
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the implications of scale invariance in Quantum Field Theory
  • Research the role of mass terms in QFT and their impact on scale dependence
  • Explore the concept of anomalies in quantum field theories
  • Examine the mathematical foundations of Minkowski and Euclidean spaces
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, mathematicians, and students interested in advanced topics in quantum field theory, particularly those focusing on the interplay between geometry and quantum mechanics.

  • #31
Demystifier said:
In general, one should distinguish symmetry of general laws from symmetry of special solutions.

Take, for instance, one free photon with 4-momentum ##k##. It is not a Lorentz invariant object (and hence not Poincare invariant object) because in another Lorenz frame it has momentum ##k'\neq k##. Nevertheless, this photon is described by Lorentz invariant laws. But one photon with one particular momentum is a particular solution of these laws, and it is not a Lorentz invariant solution. In free QED, which is the theory of free photons and electrons, the only Lorentz invariant solution is the vacuum.

Of course, free particles are not very interesting from a physical point of view, but the example above serves to understand the difference between symmetry of laws and symmetry of solutions. Equipped with this conceptual understanding, now we can try to understand something less trivial.

Now consider interacting QED. Take, for instance, scattering of two electrons with given initial momenta. In calculation of the scattering amplitude one encounters loop diagrams which appear divergent. To make them convergent one takes some cut-off, and this violates scale invariance and Poincare invariance. Physically, the effective (i.e. renormalized) coupling constant, which initially was a true constant, now depends on energy. Energy is not scale and Lorentz invariant, so naively one would say that scale and Poincare invariance are violated. But one should recall that it is obtained during a study of a special case: scattering of two electrons with given initial momenta. So this "violation" is merely the absence of symmetry in the special solution. The general laws are still Poincare and scale invariant.
Thanks for replying.
I'm aquainted with the distinction between symmetry in the laws vs the solutions. But note that I'm not referring to solutions in this thread, the theme in this thread is about comparing the symmetries in the laws of renormalized qft that reflect the absence of physical invariance of scale with the scale invariant symmetries of the mathematical model (gauge groups acting on Minkowski space) employed to embody those laws. And asking without succes if from this could be deduced an obstruction to the mathematical soundness of such model and if not why not.
So my question is more formal than about the physics behind.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
6K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
7K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K