Schrodinger's Cat: Conscious Observer & Levels of Organization

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Schrödinger's Cat, specifically addressing the role of conscious observers in wave function collapse and the levels of organization at which a living entity can be considered an observer. Participants explore the implications of consciousness on quantum mechanics and the nature of reality.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the cat itself could be a conscious observer, leading to wave function collapse.
  • Another participant proposes a nested observer model where each observer perceives their own quantum system, raising questions about the nature of observation and consciousness.
  • A different viewpoint discusses the existence of two cats in superposed states, each observing a collapsed state until the box is opened.
  • One participant introduces the idea that if time is symmetric, the certainty of the cat's condition could instantaneously affect all observers, regardless of their perception.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption of a single reality, suggesting that multiple simultaneous potential realities exist.
  • A later reply questions the necessity of multiple realities, expressing skepticism about the many worlds interpretation and its implications of infinite possibilities.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of observers and the implications of consciousness in quantum mechanics. There is no consensus on whether multiple realities exist or the validity of the many worlds interpretation.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the implications of time symmetry and the nature of reality, indicating that assumptions about consciousness and observation may not be universally accepted.

jbrussell93
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My first question is pertaining to Schrödinger's Cat (i know... I am still trying to grasp these concepts). So, wouldn't it make sense that the cat would be a conscious observer therefore causing wave function collapse in the first place?

My other question is just a general question about the observer. At what level of organization does a living thing STOP becoming an observer ie cell, bacteria, etc.
 
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Imagine a series of nested boxes, each containing a conscious observer. The innermost contains the cat. Each observer ascribes a wavefunction to the box he's looking at. To him, its contents are a quantum system, making no difference whether it is 'conscious' or not. The boxes are opened in sequence, starting with the innermost, revealing the outcome of the nth experiment to the nth observer, and causing the nth wavefunction to collapse. Each observer sincerely believes that his state was determined as soon as the box before him was opened. Nevertheless the remaining observers outside his box believe he's still in a superposition.
 
Bill K explained it well.

The closed box contains two superposed states:

1] a cat - safe from harm - that sees a collapsed state of (itself and the contents of the box)
2] a live - but doomed - cat that sees a collapsed state of (itself and the contents of the box) - which then dies

Each one cat sees a collapsed state, true but - until the box is opened - there are in essence two cats observing two states.
 
This would all make sense if time truly progressed asymmetrically forward. Since time is symmetric but we only "perceive" it as progressing asymmetrically forward, it would seem that once the cat in the internal box became aware (certain) of its conditions, this would become a certainty throughout all space-time instantly even though the other observers could not "perceive" it yet. Therefore, each subsequent observer is already certain before they open the box even though they cannot perceive this certainty.

I must be missing something :/
 
jbrussell93 said:
This would all make sense if time truly progressed asymmetrically forward. Since time is symmetric but we only "perceive" it as progressing asymmetrically forward, it would seem that once the cat in the internal box became aware (certain) of its conditions, this would become a certainty throughout all space-time instantly even though the other observers could not "perceive" it yet. Therefore, each subsequent observer is already certain before they open the box even though they cannot perceive this certainty.

I must be missing something :/

You're assuming there's only one reality. The point - to continue the analogy - is that there are multiple simultaneous potential realities.
 
That would only be true assuming the many worlds interpretation correct? I am assuming there is only one "reality".

The problem I have with the many worlds interpretation is that there are potentially an infinite number universes acting out an infinite number of possibilities. It seems that in math, infinite is a dead end... usually due to a lack of a deeper understanding.

Why must we require multiple simultaneous realities?
 

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