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Seaport 2.5 Miles Above Sea Level(?)

  1. Mar 13, 2007 #1
    "Seaport" 2.5 Miles Above Sea Level(?)

    Two days ago I discovered a new issue for me--Expanding Earth.

    Yes, I know there are pros and cons to plate tectonics and expanding earth but each is a theory. The below story has bothered me for years but I felt the earth may have contracted causing mountains to raise up. I learn there is a theory stating the earth has gotten larger instead. Sounds plausible.

    Please don't come at me with a high-ground position that you know one theory is solid and the other is made up. From what I can read scientists simply picked one over the other and everyone might be convinced depending on which theory the scientists' chose. (Doctors were once convinced it did not matter they wash their hands:eek: either but we all learned better.)

    Can anyone figure out the below with something that sounds credible:shy: ?



    Tiahuanacu, Ancient "Seaport" 2.5 Miles Above Sea Level--Oldest City On Earth?

    (Photo: Gateway of the Sun)Tiahuanacu is in the Bolivian Andes lying 12,500 feet (over 2 miles) above sea-level. It is located some 15 miles from the shores of Lake Titicaca. Archeology in general dates the city at c. 200 A.D., but it was not always so.

    Its first investigator, Arthur Posnansky, a german engineer who dedicated fifty years to its study, dated its origins to 15,000 B.C. ...


    Strangely, Tiahuanacu is a port, although the nearest body of water is Lake Titicaca, some 15 miles away. The theories about how this happens to be are several....

    On the rock cliffs near the piers and wharfs of the port area of the ruins are yellow-white calcareous deposits forming long, straight lines indicating pre-historic water levels. These ancient shorelines are strangely tilted, although once they must have been level.

    The surrounding area is covered with millions of fossilized sea-shells. It appears, from the tilting of the ancient shoreline striations and the abundant presence of fossilized oceanic flora and fauna, that a tremendous uplift of land has taken place sometime in the ancient past. Geologists estimate that this happened roughly around "100 million years ago". AtlantisQuest.com

    More on Tiahuanacu

    As an amateur mesoamerican history buff, I have always wanted to see Tiahuanacu, an ancient city perched high in the Andes above La Paz, Bolivia -- the remains of a civilization predating the Incas which may be over 17,000 years old.

    Although I have traveled to Bolivia on three separate occasions as the Brush Rotary Club's representative for the Bolivia Insulin Project, time constraints and the important work we were doing always took precedence over any "sightseeing" ventures -- until a couple of weeks ago. Carlos Baudoin, my soft-spoken Rotarian host in La Paz for my last two trips, insisted we take a few hours to see the ruins...

    Although today the nearest body of water, Lake Titicaca, is some 15 miles away, numerous archaeological studies indicate Tiahunacu was once a large thriving seaport where literally hundreds of ships may have docked.

    Historians think the original city was built when the shore was only 600 feet away. Built before the Great Flood of the Old Testament, the city is one of the oldest on the planet -- if not the oldest.

    The highland Andes have been known through myth and legend as one of the access points for vast subterranean cities, the domain of inner-earth beings who emerge from their lower worlds into the upper atmosphere from time to time. These ancient legends speak of vast networks of tunnels criss-crossing the entire length and breadth of the planet.

    Traditions of vaults, labyrinths and buried treasures are found in Crete, Egypt, Tibet, Mexico, Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia. Tiahuanacu is considered one of the gateways to these realms, along with the famous sacred site of Sacayhuaman in the Peruvian Andes. The Jesuit chronicler, Agnelio Oliva, recorded the words of an old Inca quipu reader to the effect that "the real Tiahuancu was a subterranean city, far exceeding the one above ground in vastness."

    (Photo:From Crystal Links.com) Evidence that Lake Titicaca was once a part of an ocean exists even today in the abundance of oceanic creatures still living in the salty lake, although it is over two miles above current sea level.

    The 10-ton Gateway to the Sun is monolithic, carved from a single block of Andesite granite. It is broken through the center, leading investigators to wonder what sort of tremendous forces could have achieved this feat.

    The upper portions of the gate are carved with beautiful and intricate designs, including a human figure, condors, toxodons, elephants and some symbols. Directly in the center is the so-called Sun God with rays shooting from its face in all directions. The god is holding a stylized staff in each hand which may represent thunder and lightning. It is sometimes referred to as the "weeping god" because tears are carved on its cheeks.

    The figures flanking the centerpiece are unfinished, causing viewers to wonder what could have interrupted the craftsmen. Of the animals represented on the gate, two have been extinct for thousands of years. Jaguars and condors are still with us, but toxodons and elephants can no longer be found in the area.

    History shows that an elephant-like creature thrived in the area during the Pleistocene era, some 11,000-12,000 years ago. By JOHN STAFFORD


    Lake Titicaca and the City of Tihuanacu: Mystery wrapped in an Enigma ... Page 8

    Mysterious Tihuanaco may be the world’s oldest city. "The City of Tiahuanaco is also full of mystery. Lying at a height of some 13,000 feet, it lies on a plateau that looks like the surface of a foreign planet.

    The atmospheric pressure is nearly half as low as at sea level and the oxygen content of the air is similarly small. This isolation and altitude makes the very construction of the city all the more remarkable..

    “There is evidence that the city was once a port, having extensive docks positioned right on the earlier shoreline of the now inland waterbed. One of these wharves is big enough to accommodate hundreds of ships."

    “According to Incan legends, Tihuanaco was built by a race of giants whose fatherland had been destroyed in a great deluge that had lasted for two months.”.

    Click and drag photo to resize. Script from The Java Script Source

    Many of Tihuanaco’s buildings were constructed of massive finished stones, many tons in weight, that were placed in such a manner that only a people with advanced engineering methods could have designed and transported them. … “The particular andesite used in much of the Tihuanacos construction can only be found in a quarry 50 miles away in the mountains.”

    The closest body of water to this seaport City is Lake Titicaca, the highest navigable lake in the world. “The mystery starts with an ancient waterbed that covers an area of 3200 square miles, being 70 miles wide and 138 miles long.

    The inland waterway is ..littered with millions of fossilised seashells. The lake also features a range of oceanic types, as opposed to freshwater marine life. Creatures brought to the surface in fishermen’s nets have included examples of seahorses. During the 19th Century Professor P. M. Duncan, studying the lake, noted the existence of siluroid, cyprinoid and other marine fishes in the lake.”

    “Legends have persisted over the centuries that there are stone structures beneath the waters of Lake Titicaca, much the same kind as can be found on the lake's shore. The Indians of that legion have frequently recounted this tradition, but until recently there has been no proof of such structures.

    In 1968 Jacques Cousteau, the French underwater explorer, took his crew and equipment there to explore the lake and search for evidence of underwater construction. Although severely hampered in their activities by the extreme altitude, the divers spent many days searching the lake bottom, in the vicinity of the islands of the Sun and Moon, but found nothing man-made.

    Cousteau concluded the legends were a myth.”

    Sources: Violations, Atlantis Rising, by Brad Steiger ,Thule.org

    Ancient Temple Ruins Found Under Lake Titicaca

    LA PAZ, Bolivia (Reuters) - The remains of what is thought to be a 1,000- to 1,500-year-old temple have been found below the waters of South America's lake Titicaca, a scientific expedition said Tuesday.

    ``We've found what appears to have been a 200-meter (660 feet) long, 50-meter (160 feet) wide holy temple, a terrace for crops, a pre-Incan road and an 800-meter (2,600 feet) long containing wall,'' said Lorenzo Apis, the Italian scientist leading the expedition in a region of the lake around 90 miles northeast of the Bolivian capital La Paz.

    Lake Titicaca. Click and drag photo to resize.

    The expedition ``Atahuallpa 2000,'' backed by the international scientific group Akakor Geographical Exploring, made over 200 dives into water 65 to 100 feet deep to record the remains on film and with photographs. The expedition will publish complete findings of its 18-day study in November and plans to eventually raise archeological remains to the surface.

    The ruins were found in an area of the lake between the town of Copacabana and the popular tourist destinations of the Island of the Sun and Island of the Moon.

    The research involved 10 scientists from Italy, 10 from Brazil, five Bolivians, two Germans and a Romanian. Lake Titicaca, some 12,464 feet above sea level, lies on the border between Bolivia and Peru, and is the highest navigable lake in the world.

    The Tihuanacu culture lived on its shores before they became part of the Incan empire with its base in Cusco, Peru. ``All this means our civilizations have left more footprints than we had thought,'' said Antonio Eguino, Bolivia's vice minister of culture, whose government pledged financial and technical support to preserve and protect the ruins.

    Yahoo World News - August 23 2000

    Relics Of Lake Titicaca Pre-Dates Incas

    By Alex Bellos - September 13 2000

    Lake Titicaca is 3,800m above sea level, and is the world's highest navigable lake. The ruins of what is thought to be a huge ancient temple have been discovered by archaeologists diving beneath Lake Titicaca in the Andes between Bolivia and Peru.

    One international team of scientists announced the recent finding after making more than 200 dives in Titicaca.

    "What appears to have been a 200-metre-long 50-metre-wide holy temple, a terrace for crops, a pre-Incan road and a 700-metre-long containing wall," said Lorenzo Epis, the Italian leading the Atahuallpa 2000 expedition. Ceramic artifacts were also found on the lake’s floor.

    Titicaca has long been the subject of legends about a lost underwater city, but there has been little research because of the technical difficulties of diving at altitude. While a submerged city has not been found, Mr. Epis said the ruins appeared to be 1,000 to 1,500 years old.

    It thus pre-dates the Incas and could point to the Tihuanaco people, who lived on Titicaca’s before becoming part of the Incan empire.

    "This means our civilizations have left more footprints than we had thought," said Antonio Eguino, Bolivia’s vice-minister of culture. However Mr. Eguino denied that the structure was a temple.

    "The information we have indicates they found a wall that we believe was part of a terraced agricultural field," he said. "There is no evidence indicating the wall was part of a temple."

    "It is difficult to say at this stage exactly what the wall is, but it is obviously an enormous construction," Dr. Eduardo Vinhaes, 38, a doctor and diver in the team, said. The group found what they believe to be a temple a short boat ride away from the site of the wall.

    "We set out to look for signs of ancient civilizations but we found something completely different and much bigger than we expected," Dr Vinhaes said. In addition to the practical difficulties, the research project had to contend with a worried public, who had not been informed of the project. Diving was delayed for four days because of the district of the local population on the Island of the Sun, for whom the lake is sacred.

    Mr. Eguino criticized the way the group treated the Bolivian archaeologist who guided them to the site, noting that he was not even mentioned at their news conference.
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 13, 2007 #2


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    Staff: Mentor

    Please post the link or links to the above material. I may have to edit it down to avoid copyright infringement.
  4. Mar 13, 2007 #3

    This is one of the articles collected before keeping track of such. Feel free to edit.

    Kind regards,


  5. Mar 13, 2007 #4


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    Gold Member

    Please post links to the articles you use.

    I'm not sure why you call the city a seaport- a lake port seems much more likely.

    What does this have to do with expanding earth or plate tectonics anyway?
  6. Mar 13, 2007 #5
    From the article: "The surrounding area is covered with millions of fossilized sea-shells. It appears, from the tilting of the ancient shoreline striations and the abundant presence of fossilized oceanic flora and fauna, that a tremendous uplift of land has taken place sometime in the ancient past. Geologists estimate that this happened roughly around '100 million years ago'. AtlantisQuest.com"


  7. Mar 13, 2007 #6


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    Gold Member

    So if the uplift happened ~100 million years ago, and the city dates from 200AD (or 17000BC, as some of the sources suggest...) How could this ever have been a sea port?
    I'm still not sure what this has to do with expanding earth theory.
  8. Mar 13, 2007 #7
    Dates I'm discovering are a scientist's assertion against another.

    This port seems to have been at sea level once. Didn't those mountains get pushed up as a result of plates moving?


  9. Mar 13, 2007 #8
    The ports would not have been at sea level within human occupation, it would require an uplift rate in excess of 1 m per year, which quite frankly is not justified by any evidence or any known mechanism. If there are fossils in the rocks then it is likely that the dates are quite good and any argument between scientists would probably be splitting hairs. I don't know about the specific geology of the region, however I am 99% sure that the Andes were formed by plate tectonic movement, as I have it there is subduction of the Nazca plate beneath the South American plate which explains the mountain forming. As for expanding Earth, I must admit that in my 6 years of studying the earth sciences I have never come across this theory, that's not to say it's complete garbage (I'll keep my opinion out of this) but even if it is true plate tectonics is fact and there is overwhelming evidence to support this claim.
  10. Mar 14, 2007 #9
    "Evidence that Lake Titicaca was once a part of an ocean exists even today in the abundance of oceanic creatures still living in the salty lake, although it is over two miles above current sea level."

    If the above is true then nothing seems to add up :uhh: :uhh:.


    Last edited: Mar 14, 2007
  11. Mar 14, 2007 #10


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    Can you provide a credible source that backs this up?
    Your article also states that "Historians think the original city was built when the shore was only 600 feet away. Built before the Great Flood of the Old Testament". A great deal of the material I've read on this seems to be written by crackpots with no understanding of geology, and who fail to quote sources to back up their bold claims.
  12. Mar 14, 2007 #11


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    Staff: Mentor

    Not even expanding earth "theory" could account for a 2 mile change in elevation in 2,000 years or even the ludicrous 17,000 years (do some math: the earth's radius is only 4,000 miles), not even considering the fact that such changes would appear elsewhere if they were true. You're at least four levels deep in crackpottery piled on crackpottery, using one to explain another. We've got bad history, bad religion, bad archeology, and bad geology for a start.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2007
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